149: The Real Reason You Feel Disconnected From Your Wife | How Avoidant Men Often Marry Anxious Women, and Reversing The Cycle That Destroys Relationships With Tyler Patrick

Do you feel disconnected from your wife, even though you genuinely want to be close to her?

For many men in pornography addiction recovery, one of the most painful parts of the journey is not only stopping porn. It is learning how to rebuild trust, emotional safety, and real connection in marriage. You may want to listen, love, repair, and show up well, but still feel like your wife does not trust you, does not see your efforts, or does not believe your intentions. You may try to explain yourself and end up sounding defensive. You may try to help and end up trying to fix her emotions. You may try to be honest and still feel like there is a wall between you.

In this episode of No More Desire, I sit down with Tyler Patrick of Therapy Brothers to talk about the real reason many men feel disconnected from their wives, how avoidant men often marry anxious women, and how this anxious-avoidant marriage cycle can quietly destroy trust, intimacy, and emotional connection.

Tyler is a marriage and family therapist, certified DBT skills trainer, and has specialized training in treating sexual addiction. He also shares from his own personal recovery story, including the pain of betrayal, secrecy, shame, and the process of becoming a more grounded, honest, emotionally present husband.

We talk about why porn addiction and marriage problems are so deeply connected. Porn does not only damage sexual integrity. It damages emotional safety. When a man hides pornography use, lies, minimizes, or keeps secrets, his wife often begins to question everything: “Can I trust him? Is he who I thought he was? What else do I not know?” That rupture of safety is one of the deepest wounds in betrayal trauma.

We also discuss why many men shut down, withdraw, get defensive, or disappear into work, screens, or isolation when their wife is upset. Often, this is not because they do not care. It is because shame, fear, and emotional overwhelm take over. The man feels like he is failing, so he protects himself instead of staying present.

Tyler explains the anxious-avoidant relationship cycle in a clear and practical way. The anxious partner often moves closer, asks more questions, seeks reassurance, and tries to regain safety. The avoidant partner often pulls away, shuts down, or feels criticized. The more she pursues, the more he withdraws. The more he withdraws, the more unsafe she feels. This cycle can become exhausting for both people.

But there is hope.

In this conversation, we discuss practical tools for men who want to overcome pornography addiction and become trustworthy again. We talk about emotional regulation, shame resiliency, mindfulness, self-compassion, parts work, taking healthy timeouts without abandoning your wife, and learning how to respond with presence instead of defensiveness.

We also talk about why cravings are often emotional signals. A porn craving is not always just about sexual desire. Sometimes it is connected to stress, shame, fear, disconnection, or even the vulnerability of feeling close to your wife. When a man learns to understand what the craving is trying to medicate, he can begin responding with wisdom instead of panic.

This episode is for the man who wants to stop hiding. It is for the husband who wants to rebuild trust after porn addiction. It is for the man who wants to become emotionally present with his wife, stop shutting down during hard conversations, and create a recovery lifestyle rooted in truth, love, and masculine self-leadership.

Porn addiction trains a man to escape. Recovery trains a man to stay.

Stay truthful. Stay grounded. Stay present. Stay in the work.

Check out more from Tyler Patrick and the Therapy Brothers at therapybrothers.org/no-more-desire, where you’ll find additional resources created specifically for No More Desire listeners.

Link to Blog Article for this Episode

Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, including my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.

If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Learn more about the Academy.

If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Apply here to explore coaching with Jake Kastleman.

Transcript

Jake Kastleman (00:00.182)
Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.

Jake Kastleman (00:16.376)
He's been doing this behind the scenes. He he's been lying for years. He has his reasons he's been doing that, many most of which have been unconscious. Now it's out in the open. I think the sense of safety is what's really ruptured in the relationship. That's the biggest thing for a lot of people.

Jake Kastleman (00:36.462)
I trust anything that he says. Is he who he says he is? What else is going on? What don't

Tyler Patrick (00:42.232)
When there's a traumatic thing, our brains are looking to put them in a file and file them away and not worry about And with something like this, there is no file that gets put together. So the brain wants to stay on. And so that obsession and then that need to know everything that comes along is natural, but it never produces the thing that you're actually looking for.

Jake Kastleman (01:01.646)
What if you get dropped or what if something goes wrong?

Tyler Patrick (01:05.698)
So you don't know if your partner is doing it with whole heart or whether they're being doing it out of compliance to keep you off their back.

Jake Kastleman (01:21.55)
Do you feel you have a safe place at home? Do you feel close to your wife and kids? Do you feel like your wife's here for you and you're here for her? Do you feel like she trusts you and that you trust her? If you don't feel this way, there are so many men who relate to that, and I know how you feel too. One of the things we often deal with when we are addicted to porn or in recovery is feeling unable to connect on a deeply fulfilling level.

We try, we want to be close to our spouse or our partner, we want to show up with empathy and show that we care. We also want to make her proud. But we always feel like falling short. She doesn't trust you. You don't feel like she sees you, and it seems like even your best intentions end up being seen as self centered sometimes. You try to listen. She says you're not present. You try to love her. She says you don't care.

You try to complete things around the house, and she says you're just doing it to get brownie points or to look good. You try to spend one-on-one time with her, and you often end up arguing or in conflict. You try to fill her cup, and it's as if holes have been poked in it, so that every time it fills, it immediately empties. You feel distant, uncomfortable, there's little trust, and sometimes, if you're honest, you just want to leave.

I didn't know how to show up for my wife during our first eight years. I didn't know how to be an effective partner. I thought I did, but it just seemed like my intense emotions always got in the way, or sometimes my lack thereof. I often wished that I really knew how to listen to my wife and emotionally connect. I wanted to make her happy so that things could be different. I wanted to be a man that she was proud to be with. It was the greatest pain I was.

That I ever carried. If you relate to any of this, today's episode is for you, my friend. We're going to discuss the real reason you feel disconnected from your wife, how avoidant men often marry anxious women, and the cycle that destroys relationships. Today's guest, Tyler Patrick of the Therapy Brothers, has extensive experience teaching men about this topic. He's an MFT and certified DBT skills trainer.

Jake Kastleman (03:48.236)
He also has specialized training in treating sexual addiction. Tyler teaches men how to show up as husbands with wisdom and love, leading to deepened trust and a marriage that works. I genuinely enjoyed our conversation together, and I think it will be of great help to you, my friend. Before we dive in, a reminder to follow and rate this podcast so that others looking for help can find it, and a reminder to hit that notification button so that you can keep finding it. All right, let's get started.

Jake Kastleman (04:22.7)
Hey Tyler, welcome to the show, man. It's so cool to have you here. you and Brandon, Therapy Brothers, are like you guys are just crushing it out there. You're doing amazing things, you're helping people so much. I love what you do on your show and so it's a privilege to have you, man.

Tyler Patrick (04:37.66)
well man, I I feel the same way. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to visit with you today.

Jake Kastleman (04:42.156)
Yeah, absolutely. Today, Tyler, we're gonna start off by just getting to know you more so people can hear your story, understand your background. It's an amazing story. We talked about it a bit in our initial conversation. But also today we're really gonna focus on kind of anxious women and avoidant men and this dynamic that often will happen, I think, especially in relationships where there's addiction. I know that that's happened in my own relationship, and I've worked for years to improve that.

Is it perfect? No, that would be super great. Right. But it's not. But I've learned so much and I and I'm I look forward to learning more today and helping guys out there that are dealing with this dynamic. So that'll be exciting, something that you specialize in. So I wanna I wanna start first off by people getting to know you more, your story. yeah, whatever you wanna share on that and just where you come from and

Tyler Patrick (05:37.558)
All right. Yeah. So there's I we don't want to probably take too long on this, but there's the professional story and the personal story, and in my case, they fold together. I I decided to become a marriage and family therapist when I was actually finishing an LDS church mission and I was kind of contemplating what am I going to do with my life? And I was happened to be just reading some scriptures one day and

A particular set of scriptures hit me really hard that I was supposed to work with families and especially at that time with with men and boys. And the reason why that happened was because I was serving in a place in the inner city of Baltimore, Maryland, where I we were teaching about ten little boys how to read. And as we got to know these little boys, not a single one of them knew who their father was. And it just really rocked my world that

out of ten out of ten, none of these kids actually knew their father because they were living with single mothers and and so I just started thinking, man, I'm gonna work with men, boys, but especially with families. That got me into graduate school and for marriage and family therapy. And then during the marriage and family therapy school is when my personal addiction to pornography became as bad as it had ever been. It had started when I was a teenager. It was the same classic story that a lot of people have of just keeping secrets.

not really having it affect my life too much, but then after marriage and then when it finally broke loose, that's when that's when everything really broke. And I remember the day that my wife found out, and then about four days later, she decided to leave me because she just was so beside herself with the trauma that was there and the betrayal that she had felt. And as she was leaving to to go down and stay with her family, I was driving to work and we were passing each other on the highway and

I looked over multiple times and didn't really make eye contact. And it was right as she was leaving, she looked over at me with these eyes that I thought would be full of hatred. And instead they were eyes of almost like just pure shattered brokenness, but also pity. And I I couldn't it didn't register very well that she could pity me at the same time that she was so broken. And then I saw these two little sets of pigtails in the back seat go by of my two younger daughters who were really small at the time and

Tyler Patrick (07:55.586)
At that moment, everything broke in me, and I thought, I have to do something different with the way I'm living my life. I have to figure this out. I've got to do this. And fortunately for me at the time, that was a long, long time ago, I didn't know of a lot of resources, but I was working for the drug courts of southeastern Idaho as their marriage and family therapist. And I started to just apply everything that we were teaching our clients in drug court towards my own addiction. And I learned a lot about

How to find recovery, real recovery in just in doing those things. And so I learned a lot about mindfulness. I learned a lot about self-compassion, shame resiliency, trauma work. Started doing all of that work myself. And that that sort of solidified what I wanted to do, where now I was gonna be a marriage and family therapist, helping men and boys, particularly

But now in the context of what I was going through because I was starting to see real traction and actually have my life grow into something that's been vibrant and beautiful and even my marriage something that I never thought it could be. And so that's that's the middle version in terms of length of what what the story is, but that's that's how I've gotten into what we do.

Jake Kastleman (09:08.024)
Yeah. A hundred percent. powerful what you say about the meaning behind the recovery. And I think of, you know, where you're saying all the years of holding that secrecy behind the scenes and it eventually breaking, you know, I I think of all the times that we have in our addiction to come forward with the truth, to make a change, to choose something different, you know.

To come out and tell someone. And we just delay and delay and delay and delay. And I think from a spiritual perspective, like God gives us tons of opportunities. Life, right? Gives us tons of opportunities. And when we don't take it, eventually there ha ha something has to break and it's and it's extremely traumatic. The longer we wait, I think the more painful it is. But inside the lie is.

If I just hide this and keep it under the surface, then there won't be pain. I will save myself the discomfort and the pain. And we say in this person, right, my wife, the discomfort and the pain. And then it ends up being far more extreme.

Tyler Patrick (10:20.79)
Builds and builds and builds. And yeah, that's the lie, right? And that's that's part of that's part of where I think we learn to avoid a little bit too, because in our brains we can use denial to say, hey, I'm not really affecting anybody else. I'm not even really affecting myself. And if I am, I'll pay the price on the inside. But but it won't affect an anything else because now I'll just punish myself with my shame or my self-criticism or my wrestle with God or whatever. And you know, I happen to believe

you know, my my own set of spiritual beliefs is is that God is always pursuing our hearts. And so we get those opportunities to either come clean or eventually God pursues our hearts through the things that really break. And when they really break, it's it's a bigger climb out, but it's also still the same opportunity to let ourselves be seen and found. And unfortunately when it does break the way that it it did for me and that it does for so many people, it adds another layer on top

for the partner that finds out and for the person trying to climb out of the hole because nobody likes to think that they've been the one who shattered the person that they love the most. And so that shame becomes really, really strong and it's it's hard to deal with.

Jake Kastleman (11:33.09)
Yes. It does. And I think I think the the difficult reality is, you know, when when guys come forward and they talk about the addiction, right? They s in some scenarios, like I just had my friend Todd Smithson on the podcast a couple weeks ago. Amazing story with him and his wife. if you guys haven't listened to it, episode one forty five. Really, really good. but he he talked about how

You know, this happened on vacation randomly, right? His daughter finds he she has his phone in the backseat and he didn't close a couple of tabs that he had open. Right. And so 20 plus years, 21 years at that point, no one had ever found out. Nobody, like no one ever knew about this issue he had his whole since his teenage years. He'd never told a soul.

And that day he came clean about all of it. And his wife's response, amazing was obviously there's devastation, there's hurt, there's shock, there's all those things. But she proceeded to on the drive that they were on in California, headed home, she proceeded to write down her hopes and then her fears, and she just began processing through this. And she actually

eventually reached out with compassion, reached out and grabbed his leg and just letting it, you know, like we're gonna figure this out. And that that like because I see so many scenarios where it's it is it is World War Three. It is you look what you've done, which is which is fair. I mean, you've lied to me for twenty years, thirty years, forty years in some people's cases. What do you think makes the the difference

We have a lot of partners that listen to this show. This is a total tangent to some degree, but it's but it's also relationships too. What do you think makes the difference in women's approach approaches and and I think more so how how how how should they approach it? Or what's it what can they expect to feel and how do they how do they navigate all this, you know?

Tyler Patrick (13:47.758)
Well I mean so confusing, right? So you know, we the the truth is is on the betrayed partner side of things, for most partners there's at least a version of this and some it's bigger than others, and I'll explain what I think is going on as to why some react you know, bigger than others. But for sure, you're walking along in this relationship which is supposed to be the most stable and secure place in this world that you have to to be able to have a landing spot, and now there's been secrets that have been kept for years and

It throws everything into question. So security in the relationship is tied to attachment. Now the attachment feels strained and broken. Now there's questions as what else don't I know? What else should I need to do to protect myself? Am I even safe in this relationship? And then it causes that emotional spiral of it's like a roller coaster for a partner. And so you can have empathy for a betrayed partner that what are they going to do when they feel what when when security is ripped out from underneath your feet? Well, what they do is they obsess about it.

And then that obsession makes them tired and burned out. And then they lean into trying to find a way to control it. And controlling usually happens by either trying to fix their partner or sometimes they go into themselves and go, if I just if there was less stress in the house, or if we just had sex more, if I lost weight, if I you know, whatever that is. And so mate so now I'm trying to control my partner at the same time that I'm now doubting myself. And here's the the the the horrible thing is that's where shame comes in for a betrayed partner too.

And then they get tired of being a probation officer, they get tired of like feeling like they're never enough, and then that just exacerbates the cycle further and further. And I think, honestly, I think what I see in my practice, and this plays out over treatment with my my betrayed partners all the time, is the more shame resilient a partner is, the less the the less big the response becomes.

And so if if I go and I betray my wife and I pull the rug out from underneath her and it doesn't hit her shame so much, it still devastates her. It still hurts her. It still causes her to question things. But when she goes inward, she lands on, I already know who I am and this isn't about me. And because this isn't about me, I can see the landscape a little more clearly and I don't take it quite as personally. And so my responses tend to be.

Tyler Patrick (16:12.512)
a little bit more grounded and a little bit more guided with like staying in touch with my own values.

Jake Kastleman (16:18.816)
Right. And and this is the hard thing again, talking about couples and marriage here, you know, I think it's difficult to tell that full story and both sides of that scenario where, okay, often the husband, right, can be the wife, but more typically it's the husband that's got the addiction. He's been doing this behind the scenes, he he's been lying for years, right.

He has his reasons he's been doing that, many most of which have been unconscious, right? Now it's out in the open. Now she's like, as you say, the security, I think the sense of safety is what's really ruptured in the relationship. That's the biggest thing for a a a lot of women, I would say, is my sense of safety, as you say, is is now gone. I can I trust anything that he says? Is he who he says he is? What else is going on? What don't I know about? And I and I think a lot of

a lot will get in that hypervigilance, as you said, of I need to know, I need to know, I need to know. Tell me everything, what is going on, and still not feeling satisfied at the end of that, that they don't know there's just so much so many things I can't know. How do and how do I know? And eventually part of that healing process is is is letting that go to some extent. I think what would you say about that?

Tyler Patrick (17:42.176)
Yeah, I I'd say it's natural. It's a natural tendency to have the brain, when there's a traumatic thing, our brains are looking to put in a file and in order and so we can file them away and not worry about And with something like this, there is no file that gets put together. So the brain wants to stay on. And so that obsession and then that need to know everything that comes along is natural, but it never produces the thing that you're actually looking for, which is that security and safety. And the more you pursue it,

The less you can actually trust it because now you're the one controlling whether or not it happens and so you don't know if your partner is doing it with whole heart or whether they're being doing it out of compliance to keep you off their back.

Jake Kastleman (18:23.284)
Yes. Yeah. And I think for so many guys, that's the shift that and that's one of the shifts that I'm sure you help them with and that I help them with on on the addict end is you need to change your identity, your whole approach from the things I say, the things I do are all to get a result for my wife to like me or to make her happy or to get a certain her her to s perceive me a certain way to.

Who do I wanna be as a man, as a husband, as a father? Who do I deeply and truly wanna be and have that identity shifted? Right. It can't cause your wife feels it. If you're just trying to do stuff to impress her or make her think a certain way, it doesn't work.

Tyler Patrick (19:07.778)
That's right, because the feeling and the gut is where the real truth lies. And and we talk about this all the time and people will say, You broke my trust and then let's just say a man who's broken his wife's trust, he thinks, Well, being if here's the first step in the right direction, even though it's maybe not the right direction, is well, I'm gonna tell her everything then. So I'm gonna tell her every thought that I had today throughout the whole day about every single thing that went through my mind and every woman that I noticed and

You're going to ruin your relationship if you treat it that way. Because in his mind, he's like, but I'm being honest now. And I think, I think when we talk about honest, what you just said is more important about honesty is honesty means I need to go on a journey to start living an authentic life. And when I live an authentic life, when I start to accept who I am, when I start to show up as who I am in my relationship, even if my partner doesn't like certain aspects.

That builds trust faster than me disclosing twenty things today about what went on because now I'm g I'm putting myself out there for you to now say, I wanna I wanna merge into that with you, or you know what, that doesn't work for me. but that authenticity is what builds the trust more than daily compulsive disclosure because I'm supposed to be honest now.

Jake Kastleman (20:28.256)
Yeah, exactly. And one of the things, you know, in working with a therapist in my own life, you know, one of the things he really drove home for me. He said there are three tiers of of tiers as far as levels of reasons to do something kind or good for somebody else. So the lowest tier is I'm gonna do something good in order to get something out of this person. Right. Often for guys it'll be I'm gonna do this because I want sexual interaction, right? And therefore if I treat my wife really nice then

She'll have sex with me, right? That's a lower tier reason to do something good for your wife or for somebody else. The high second tier would be what we often think of as the highest tier is I'm gonna do this to make somebody else happy, right? To help them feel happy. And he said there's a third tier, and it can sound paradoxical, but it's I'm gonna do this because that's the kind of person that I want to be. Then it doesn't hinge on.

The response of my wife. It doesn't hinge on the result. Now I can learn from the result. I can learn from what their response is, but I'm doing it because I'm trying to develop my own identity. And when I can do that in my own relationship, my gosh, the feeling's completely different. The the relationship dynamic is totally different. Yeah.

Tyler Patrick (21:44.93)
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I love what you just said. And that's that's where we spend a lot of our time trying to shift energy because someone who's in a deep addiction, by nature of being an addiction, they have to have certain levels of denial that keep them operating in maybe those first or second tiers. The second tier's like a really massive step for a lot of people in like really strong addiction because they're so self centered in the way that they're living their lives, trying to protect themselves all the time. And

And so they go to that second tier and they think, Man, I'm working so hard. You know, I had a guy come into group the other day. And he's he's like so frustrated. You know, he's like, I've been, you know, I'm like, what's going on? What's going on? He's he's doing really hard work. He's been sober for like well over a year. And he's like, I'm so frustrated right now with my wife because he's like, I have been I have been doing the dishes every day for 39 days and

And she hasn't even noticed, she hasn't even said anything. Like he's like just you know, he's like going crazy, like, why hasn't she noticed this? And we sat there and I kind of started chuckling for a second. And then and then one of the other guys of the group raised his hand, he's like, Do you s see the problem with this? And he's like, Yeah, like she w why doesn't she notice? And he's like, No, no, the problem is that you counted 39 days. Like, why don't why don't you just go do the dishes because that's the guy you're gonna be around the house to help out? You know? It's like

Jake Kastleman (23:09.835)
And then it's just yeah, yeah. Jaw drops the f

Tyler Patrick (23:12.832)
Wha wow? What yeah, like like yeah, no, seriously, man, did you do the dishes because you and God decided you should do the dishes, or did you do the dishes so that your wife could tell you you were a good boy?

Jake Kastleman (23:23.542)
Yes, right. Now my my wife is my mom. That's often the dynamic that I'll I'll talk about is it am I expecting her to be my cheerleader? Right. And like the one I go to, look, mom, look how great I did, which is very natural. Right. But the part of part of maturing into a man which has been stunted so heavily by the addiction, unfortunately. And and I have felt that in my life, as I'm sure you have.

We need to shift into being a man, right? I'm doing this because the I'm showing up in my family unit, right? I'm doing this because that's the kind of guy I want to be. And moving out of this, I'm I'm doing, you know, I think a lot of us, and this is part of the culture too, right? Guys can feel like, when I take care of the kids, and I know I go through this too, and I gotta be really aware of it. If I take care of the kids,

Look how great I'm being. Yeah. My wife takes care of the kids. it's just her job. Right. Or I do the dishes. I'm so helpful. My wife does the dishes. It's like, yeah, she takes care of the house. That's a that's a severe double standard, right? And and I become more aware of that and trying to shift into I'm a part of this family. I am the father. I'm the husband. This is how I want to show up.

Tyler Patrick (24:45.826)
That's then that and and you know what you're talking about is that that's directly tied to like what real recovery is too. It's more than just the sobriety, it's stepping into your true identity. In this case we're talking about as a man, like owning all of that and stepping in and playing that role from an authentic place that is grounded all the way back into and we we use a spiritual component in our treatment. Who does God say that you are?

And once you start to uncover that, like it's like the Lion King when he's out there in the wilderness with Pumba and Timon, like running away from his trauma and and

Jake Kastleman (25:18.902)
It's a fan it's a fantastic story. It's so deep.

Tyler Patrick (25:21.602)
Yeah, it is and then he finally gets g you know, Mufasa coming back, the father, and saying, Remember who you are. And as soon as he gets back in touch with who truly are you, then he makes that marathon run back to Pride Rock that takes like ten minutes in the movie to reclaim his like you know, his place as the one true king. And and the thing is like when you look at that that metaphor in terms of recovery, what do most betrayed partners really want? They want honesty, they want safety.

And they want a man who lives according to principles that they don't dictate. You know, if they if they have a man who says, you know what, hey, I I feel really strongly that I need to do this thing, she may not even totally agree, but if he lives according to the principle of it, that speaks trust, louder than him folding on his principles to placate her. She she'll like it in the short term, but in the long term, she's she resents him and she sees him as weak.

And so she wants to be married to a man who decides what his principles are, who gets his identity from somewhere else, and then can can like offer his strength to the relationship rather than consuming her, needing her to always tell him that he's enough. You know, you talked about n being the mother. We we we actually reference it that sometimes, especially in sex addiction, this works really strongly, that our wives sometimes almost subconsciously become God to us. Because

Because the way that we form the addiction is that we find this place where whatever that is, that feminine energy or whatever that becomes sexualized, we're looking for that to fill the void in us. And then and then we start to try to find our wives and have them fill the void in us as well. And she can never live up to that. That's an that's a tank that can never be filled. She needs you to find God and then offer yourself and your strengths.

to her in the relationship rather than needing her to be the one who holds it all.

Jake Kastleman (27:21.63)
Ugh. So good, man. So powerful. And this actually brings us into the main topic of the episode, which is this I think this is all interconnected. A lot of guys find themselves not every guy. Now there's different dynamics, but I I think you could tell me percentages maybe based on your experience. But the guy is kind of in this avo avoidant emotional dynamic within within the relationship and the woman is in the anxious.

dynamic within the relationship. Right. So woman moving toward, supposing guy moving away, right? Now that can flip flop, but I I would I would like to start to dive into that and this dynamic. Now some people who are listening don't even know anything about this. So sure let's talk about the basics of how this can work in a relationship and how it can feed into addiction.

Tyler Patrick (28:18.92)
perfect. Yeah. So so let's just start right back with the basics of attachment theory. And I a lot of your listeners probably are familiar with that, but we'll touch on that so we're all on the same page. attachment theory looks at the way that we interact with other people and what our basic needs are and how we get our basic needs met as we grow. And what we know about human beings is that we're wired for attachment and connection. You know, the Romanian orphanage studies show that or

Orphans in cribs who are given everything they need to live still turn around and die or experience really significant mental health problems if they don't have human connection and touch as they grow up, as children. and so attachment theory bases itself from the very minute we're born and how we're connecting to our primary caregivers. And it looks really heavily at our relationships with our mothers, but but also our primary caregivers. And what we want is to

grow into what's called a securely attached attachment style. And what a secure attachment is, is is that as I grow, I know that the people in my life are always there for me and I have a safe landing spot and I can trust them and there's loyalty and there's consistency. But also as I grow I need to develop my own independence and so I can go explore the world and but then I always have a safe base to to land again. And so a securely attached person is somebody who

Trust themselves, they know themselves, they allow themselves to live in this world, but and they also trust you. They also trust my I trust my wife. So I know who I am, I can survive, I can do my own thing, but I also trust my wife. That's a securely attached person. Now, when it when things go wrong, we move into strained styles of attachment. And there's three primary ones that people talk about. the first one is the anxious style of attachment.

And what anxious attachment really boils down to you think about dropping your kid off at at daycare or at nursery at church or something, and they're clinging to your leg like life is gonna end if you walk out without them. That's that's the anxious attachment style. And they're saying, I don't trust myself to be alone in this world. I I need you to be there, to complete me, to make sure I'm okay, to

Tyler Patrick (30:39.674)
To assure me that everything's all right all the time and I'm going to overpursue you. And then the other side of that spectrum is called the avoid an attachment style. And that's where you start to learn not to trust anybody else, but to only rely on yourself and you shut people out and you kind of pull away from relationships, you pull away from vulnerability. And and then the middle one is called a mixed style of attachment, and that's where you actually demonstrate both, where

You might be over pursuing at the same time that you're pushing somebody away. You know, I remember walking my wife down, we went to Las Vegas for a trip one time, and I'm so I'm so stupid. We were over at like the tunnel, if you know where the light tunnel is in Vegas, and she's like, I want to go walk down with a strip and see the lights and the fountains and stuff. I'm like, yeah, that's no problem. That's not far away. And I'm like, We'll just walk there. And then I start walking and realize that it's like a four mile walk through like really dark neighborhoods.

In the middle of the night. You know, and so I'm I'm we have this like homeless guy coming up to us trying to like panhandle us and like like and my wife just feeling so unsafe. And so what does she do? She like grabs my shoulder and she's like and and but then she's like, I am so mad at you right now, Tyler. I can't believe you put me in this situation. And so I start to pull away and she like yanks me close to her. She's like, Don't you leave my side, but I'm still pissed at you. Right? So so that that's like a

That's a mixed attachment like moment, right? Where I'm gonna pull you close but not let you get too close. And and what's interesting about this is that we often when we're dating, we are actually attracted to the person who has the other style than the one we're used to. Okay. So, you know, so I

Jake Kastleman (32:28.256)
Isn't that just it's gosh, when I hear things like that, we're just set up for struggle in a relationship, I feel and growth. And right. It's it's I had a who was it? It was I'll remember his name in a minute, but he said marriage is the perfect storm. Marriage is the perfect storm. Right. And it's and it is it's a setup for the ultimate growth, but it's a setup for the ultimate struggle. Both.

Tyler Patrick (32:36.822)
It's the beauty of marriage, right? Right.

Jake Kastleman (32:58.37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tyler Patrick (33:00.418)
I was thinking about that the other day, like listening to just reading some scriptures and how often Christ refers to the church as his bride. And then he spent his whole ministry fighting with the church. And somehow somehow he never left the church and was a rabbi in that church at the same time that he started his own. And like I'm like, what about how that's how does that apply to marriage? You know

Jake Kastleman (33:28.364)
Look, and I think I think that wim women, you know, I I read a book, The Masculine in Relationship, G. S Youngblood. It's a fantastic book. It's changed my life. he t and and and this is a very taboo topic these days, which I don't think it should be. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that it is, because it needs to be talked about. The difference between f the feminine and the masculine, how can we show up effectively as man, right, in a relationship? And I

You know, what I what I came to understand so much through there is just how do I show up as a leader in the home? Right. How and and a lot that instantly, again, when we hear that, it's like, you what are you trying to dominate? Are you trying to, you know, hold yourself, put yourself over your wife? And he says, no, this is about me mutually beneficial leadership, you know, doing it in a way that is welcomed by the other party and doing and

Being able to offer that masculinity from a place of grounded strength. And so many of us do not know how to do that. We didn't have examples of how to do that. We haven't been taught how to do that. And I think I would say that plays into this avoidant versus anxious kind of attachment going.

Tyler Patrick (34:49.898)
I I think you're spot on there. I I also love the book. You know, I we got in trouble because we did an episode yeah. Yeah, we did an episode about the book and we had a lot of women that didn't like that we endorsed the book because the energy of the book can be a little off putting for someone who's like stepping into that world. But if you look at the principles inside of what he's really teaching there, I I'll tell you I watch this in couples that I work with over and over again. When I get a man who starts to take seriously his like

Jake Kastleman (34:54.776)
You read it?

Tyler Patrick (35:19.254)
his calling to step in and offer structure and safety and support and like boundaries inside of his relationship, it makes the marriage get way better over time. And so we we're a big fan, both Brandon and I are a big fan of actually that that book because the principles have just played out so many times to be true. And I think it ties back to what you're saying here that and this comes from lots of places, wounded boys,

men and boys who've been taught certain things in our society about what it means to be toxic versus strong versus weak versus and so so a lot of the men that we work with, it's not that they're actually very, very good men at heart, but they don't know how to show up as a good man because they're so afraid. And this is where shame comes in, is their their shame starts to eat them alive. And then they go into the the defensive modes of either getting really defensive and kind of toxic or they go into that avoidant, pull away, shrink.

Play small, don't show up. And those are the really nice guys, but then but then their wives are always resenting them because they don't take leadership and they don't are they aren't not equal partners and they don't have something to push against when they're making decisions and and so that's for sure part of this, I think. And if I've learned, especially when I ha add an addiction onto it where I have to hide it, now I get really good at hiding.

That hiding fuels more shame. The shame tells me I'm not enough. And the more I'm not enough, the more I'm gonna keep pulling away from any form of connection, leadership, structure, boundaries, because I don't believe that I'm worthy of actually stepping into the truth of who I am. He we basically do what, you know, what Simba did after Scar told him to run away and never return after he thought he killed his dad. Like he disappeared further and further and further away until it was just eating at him.

And in in that story, it's interesting because Nala comes first and kind of like he's like, wait a second, like blast from the past and wow, she's beautiful and there might be more to life. And then Rafiki comes in and then he has the vision, then he comes home, right? But like it's it's kind of interesting how that all kind of works, but that's the dance that we do in addiction sometimes. And that's why we see like, you know, if you're if you're an anxious partner, this adds to the mix because the more you pursue

Tyler Patrick (37:40.226)
The more you feel your partner pull away, and the reason they're pulling away isn't because they don't love you. Most often they're pulling away because they're either afraid you're gonna hurt them or they're totally afraid of hurting you. And so they pull away because they can't tolerate the thought of hurting you or being hurt. But y but but to an anxious partner, it feels like pure rejection.

Jake Kastleman (38:03.562)
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So so let's talk more about this dynamic, Tyler. I wanna talk both about the dynamic on the avoidant partners end and then the anxious partner's end. So why do you feel like so many men feel emotionally disconnected from their wives in this way, even when they they still love them, they want the marriage to work, they're trying to show up, but what is

What is leading them to this emotional disconnection? And you've already kind of you've you've already addressed some of that with the shame. But then on the the wife's end, right, they become so anxious, critical, desperate for connection. What's often happening beneath the surface for them as well? So kind of talking about.

Tyler Patrick (38:52.662)
Yeah, great. Both ends. So so let's just stay on the avoidant side for just a second longer. The avoidant the avoidant person doesn't necessarily not want connection. They're just afraid of being able to open up to somebody who can actually hold whatever they're going to give them. Right. And so

Jake Kastleman (39:10.828)
And a lot of a lot of a lot of guys like that that's come from childhood, right? It's what they learned inherently.

Tyler Patrick (39:17.078)
Yeah, most of the time the by the time you get into your marriage, you're already cued for whatever style of attachment you're gonna start to default into when things get stressful. And and so, you know, if you've learned over time through growing up that, you know, it's better to stay on the sidelines and not put yourself in the arena and get burned or, you know, you've been picked on by all the other boys and boy scouts and you'd rather just not connect with anybody then when your wife starts coming to you and you've

And because of your addiction, you've started to place her higher higher on the pedestal of how she's gonna tell you you're enough when you're sexually good enough for her. now she's coming at you and always saying, like, I need more of your time, or how come you know you're not around enough or whatever it is, but what you hear through your shame is you don't measure up, you'll never measure up, you're not good enough, you're never and and then you've also been taught never to show any emotions other than maybe aggression and maybe anger.

Now you're emotionally feeling inept to be even share whatever's going on inside of you. And so you you tend to kind of pull yourself away further and further. But the internal workings are all self doubt, shame, I'm not enough, I don't measure up. I don't want them to be able to see me and hurt me, 'cause if she really knew me, she wouldn't want to be with me anyway.

Jake Kastleman (40:36.116)
And and so many of those messages are unconscious until we bring them into the conscious and we begin to see them, become aware of them, heal them, ship them. I I think in my own life, like you're describing the first several years of my marriage, you know, the the mentality that I had. Right. Right. And that's why that's why you, you know, this is one of the things that you specialize in, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tyler Patrick (41:02.082)
Yeah, spot on.

Jake Kastleman (41:04.462)
Before we get back to the show, I want to take a few minutes to share a story of one of my clients. Because if you're someone who's been battling with porn addiction yourself and feeling stuck, I think that you'll relate to this. My client Gabe came to me discouraged about the impact his porn use was having on his life. It got in the way of his productivity at work, made him feel more distant from his wife and kids, and caused him to experience brain fog, lack of motivation, and a lack of confidence. All things that I relate to deeply and personally. Gabe was a good man.

He valued his family, served his community, he had a good job, and he had ambition. He could even get a decent streak of sobriety sometimes, but nothing long-lasting. Gabe's problem was not discipline, it was a lack of knowledge and skill. He didn't understand how to regulate his emotions and train his nervous system properly, so that cravings, anger, and other painful emotions could be moved through effectively. By the time he finished my program, Gabe had five months of sobriety without a single relapse.

His perspective on life had changed dramatically, and for the first time he felt fully connected and in harmony with his principles and who he was. I'll share a few of his words directly. I would leave every session with Jake feeling like my eyes had been opened to a new level of understanding that changed my self-talk, my relationship with my spouse, and my ability to connect with my children. The program felt incrementally tailored to my needs and had the exact building blocks I needed to live a sober lifestyle.

Mindset. I've kept in touch with Gabe since then. His success has continued, and he is now seven months sober. Gabe's story is one of many men who've joined my intensive coaching program and experienced sobriety. If you want to join these men, dig deep and finally be sober for good. Head to nomoredesire.com/slash program to learn more. Back to the show.

Tyler Patrick (43:01.186)
The anxious side of things is interesting because the partner who might be anxiously attached, they're all they're also doing the same kind of a thing, but they're doing it more proactively as the avoidant one. So the avoidant one's trying to not get rejected. The anxious one is already feeling rejectable and they're looking for that steady, strong place to land on that's like, okay, I'm not rejected. And the more that they chase, you know, this is funny. I was as I was at a track meet the other day with my

with my wife and one of my clients came up and saw me and so she came up and said hi and of course there's like all that confidentiality stuff you gotta figure but it because she introduced herself and said, Hey, I work with your husband and da da da that was all sh blown out of the window. And then she kept talking to my wife, like talking, talking, talking, talking. She finally left and my wife was like, she wants me to like her so bad. And I'm like, I c I kind of felt that energy too. And she said, Right. That makes me want to not like her.

Jake Kastleman (44:00.021)
Ha ha ha.

Tyler Patrick (44:01.058)
And was like, that is the curse of the anxiously attached person. Is they're always chasing, chasing, chasing. Do you w do you like me? Do you approve of me? Am I good enough? And and then what it does is it overdoes it and it consumes people and then people start to pull away and then they experience deep rejection over and over and over again. Yeah. Which is the very thing they're trying to avoid in the first place.

Jake Kastleman (44:22.988)
Yes. Yep. Yeah, a hundred percent. I you know, in you describing the the avoidant one, like I I notice my kind of my the the places that I will tend to go, that I've been working to shift, right? When I start to feel of stressed, overwhelmed, afraid, right, ashamed, it's pull into my own world.

my my needs, my wants. I need to get my personal time, my and at this point it's my emotional work, my workout, my time to myself. Sure. Right. And I need some of that. But on my wife's end, she's been that that kind of anxious attap attachment. And she's been working to heal that. But she's like, why would you not historically it's why would you not just come, just come

Be with me and just tell me about all your feelings. And I'm like, no. That's the last. Right. And she's like, I don't get I don't get that. I don't get it. And we've we've done a lot of work on that. And so she's needed to move more into how do I handle my pain independently, right? More. Yeah. And I've needed to move more into how do I open up in a healthy way? 'Cause I and I'd love to talk about this because I think there I think there is a way

And maybe, maybe I don't have the best perspective on this, but if I'm just gushing and unloading and I am just like vomiting on the other person, going into sh shame and victim mentality and just losing myself, it's not good. But if I can come from a a place of self awareness and authentically describe describing here's what I'm facing and here's what I'm going through, and I'm

There's part of me that's having such a difficult time right now. I just feel totally overwhelmed. That's that's completely different. And that hopefully can lead to a vulnerable conversation that's open. But I don't know. Maybe I'm just not good enough at like taking in kind of the gushing and you know, someone feeling completely out of sorts.

Tyler Patrick (46:37.344)
The difference in what you just described is the difference between maybe an anxious approach versus a secure approach. And and to me, like both of those things on both sides, this is what's interesting to me is for the anxious or the avoidantly attached person, the internal work looks a lot the same, which is shame resiliency work allows me to be in more of a secure place, which then allows me to show up in my relationships a little bit differently. And

Jake Kastleman (46:44.088)
Hm. Yeah.

Tyler Patrick (47:06.348)
The cool thing is in relationships, this is part of the blessing of being in a in a good marriage, even though it tests us, is maybe I'm not on my A game today, and I start kind of showing up in my avoidant kind of a way, but my wife happens to be in a good shame resiliency today. She doesn't play her normal role now because it's a dance that we would used to do. You know, maybe I would chase her and she'd run and then, you know, when I get finally get time

Tired of chasing, she'd be like, wait a second, I don't have anyone to run from anymore. Okay, I'll chase you for a second. And we kind of play this cat and mouse game, but now maybe she comes to me. Maybe, maybe I'm in the good space today. And she comes to me and she's like, Tyler, like for being a therapist, you suck at listening. I don't know how you keep a caseload, right? That's that's like a that that is a that is an anxious and non-vulnerable approach to trying to find connection.

Jake Kastleman (47:56.988)
Right.

Tyler Patrick (47:57.674)
And if I'm if if it hits all of my avoidance and my shame, then I'm be like, you're right, I suck, I'll leave. You deserve someone better. Right. Like, you know, but but if I'm on A game. Yeah. If I'm on my A game, I see it and I'm like, hey, babe. Like the fact that you just said those things tells me you must be feeling neglected or you need my time. I love that you want my time. Like, is that what's going on? Tell me more. Right? Like my secure reaction back to her is now an invitation into secure reaction.

Attachment. Mm-hmm. Or maybe I'm the one that's fa faltering and she's the one who's secure and is like, Hey Tyler, as soon as you're done pouting, like come talk to me. I'd love to visit with you. Like go call somebody, go for a walk, run your dog. That's our that's our code where because Tyler, you need to go run the dog. It's like, yeah, I'll go run the dog, then I'll come back and talk to you. Right.

Jake Kastleman (48:47.604)
Yes. Yes. And and and and tell me, you know, for me again, referring to the masculine in relationship, he he talks about how being like the nice guy, right? we think this is our role and we think it's it's good to be the nice guy. And what I noticed in my relationship is the const unconsciously, but the constant need I felt, I would say at this point, in truth, to control my wife's emotions.

make her feel okay. And so when she would come to me, yeah, I'm feeling really worried and afraid of this or that or really anxious about it, it it's like inside, I just start to panic. Like, how do I even okay, I need to fix this. I need to make her feel better. She can't be in suffering right. And I'd I'd go into fix it mode and I, well, why don't we try this and why don't we try that? And and also I'd go into very much the avoidant mode of just like, I just I don't even know how to help you right now. Like maybe you should figure it out.

All this control dynamic moving into what he says, which is just in a in a word, presence, not needing to control the emotions. And when I when I do that, it provides a space of security where she can express her emotion and I can say, I gotcha. Tell me more what that's like for you. And I can open up space and not feeling like I need to fix it. Now I don't have to go avoidant and I don't need to go anxious either. Right. And she

She doesn't need to become anxious of like, be here for me. She's like, you okay, you like you are here for me. Like I can, I can trust that.

Tyler Patrick (50:24.972)
Yeah. I w I would suspect that if you go into your own fix it mode, which is to hurry and fix her so that you're okay, that's still selfish, right? Like she she probably often, if she's like my wife, she'll go for like five minutes, she's and then she'll say, You're not even listening to me. And I'm like, I just heard everything. I gave you all the solutions, go do Right. And she's like, You didn't listen, Tyler. And what she's really saying when she says that is, show me some presence.

Are you in a spot where you can offer your presence? And you think about that. Our presence is maybe the biggest gift that we can offer the people that we love. And our presence, in order for it to be authentic, needs to be boundried. And so if my wife comes to me and she's like, Tyler, like you're this and this and this and this and this, I can listen to it. And if I'm grounded, I can try to stay there. But eventually I might have to say, Hey, babe, I can tell that you're you're really upset about something. I'm not in the spot to give you my best self.

I'm gonna go take a break and get grounded again and I hope you will too. And then I'll come back and I'll check on you and we'll finish talking about this. And that is actually building more trust and offering more attachment than me just letting her in that state of like pure consumption try to s consume me and then me not be enough and then she resents me and I resent her and then we're going the wrong direction.

Jake Kastleman (51:45.42)
Right. And it's like it's like I'm pouring all this water into her cup and I'm like, I'm filling your cup. And all there's all these holes in her cup and they're they're all just it's all dumping out and it's still empty at the end. Right. And it's like, I just listened to you for forty five minutes and I tried to fix all your problems. How are you not okay right now?

Tyler Patrick (52:05.878)
Yeah, and how did I still fail?

Jake Kastleman (52:07.892)
Right. And exactly right. I failed. And that's again, it comes back to the kind of the self-centered mentality of why am I still not enough? How have I not made you happy? Right. Rather than I'm just opening up space for your emotion and this is your process to go through. And I'm gonna be here as a support to you in that. And whenever you get okay, you get okay. And as long as you're not like I'm I'm I'm open and I'm here and I'm listening, I'm your support.

Your partner. And it feels like that's so simple in a lot of ways, but also it's so difficult.

Tyler Patrick (52:45.088)
It's simple to talk about, but when you add in the human element of emotion is it's really hard.

Jake Kastleman (52:52.27)
Right, these darn emotions, why don't we just get rid of you know?

Tyler Patrick (52:57.74)
Yeah, because they're 'cause they're also so important and wonderful, you know. It's that's that's the dual edged sword of everything, right? The the dual nature of things.

Jake Kastleman (53:06.03)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. So I want to talk about one of the major, very, very common dynamics for a lot of guys, which is shutting down or withdrawing, getting defensive, disappearing into work or obviously screens or porn or these types of things. what what can that man begin to do in his own life to move out of

Maybe particularly in these conversations, with the defensiveness, the withdrawing, the shutting down, and then also in his general lifestyle and in what he's cultivating to move out of that place and into a more healthy grounded place.

Tyler Patrick (53:50.762)
Great question. It's probably my answer will probably be in line with a lot of what you already teach your clients here. But I look at it as like so so the immediate place of the actual conversation, let's hit that first and then let's talk about the lifestyle that will help as well. Okay. So when I'm in that immediate place, what's happening is is my partner is coming to me and I've already put her on the pedestal of needing to be my answer. So that cues me up to be in more shame already. So the minute there's a criticism or a protest or something.

I'm already cued to start to take it personally. And so one of the things that and I'll just walk you through my own routine. When that happens, you know, she says something like, you know, I can't believe you keep a full caseload. Okay. That hits like right, like, And then it it it hits my shame. It's my shame. And I feel it just wash over me. You know, it's like my head starts to sink, my shoulders start to curl in, my my gut starts to be there, like heaviness, like,

What I've learned to do for myself is I recognize it as its own entity and I call it Tyler, there's your shame. And I pack picture my hands grabbing it out of my chest and I pull it out of my body and I just set it right underneath my like chicken wing armpit here. And I'm like, okay, I'll I will get to you in a minute because there is something that needs some attention there. Yeah. But this isn't personal. Like this is this is for your wife right now. So if I can do that.

Now I can then say it's not personal. I'm going to start looking at how is this her best response? Right. So everything my partner brings me is either an act of love or a cry for help. And if I can get not personal and start to see whatever she's doing as a cry for help, now I can put my energies into being there for for her, being there with her rather than worrying about not being good enough.

And then I'll hold that as long as I can and I practice the skill of empathy, which I'm sure you teach your your guys a lot. I practice the skill of empathy for as long as I can until I can feel myself like wearing down. And then I'll exit and I'll say, Hey, babe, like I want to give you the best of me and I don't have the best of me right now. So I'm gonna go run the dog, or I'm gonna go do some dailies, or I'm gonna do something, and I will check back in on you and see where this is landed and as soon as I'm grounded again.

Tyler Patrick (56:17.164)
Now that that part's really important when it comes to attachment because if I just pull away and disappear or take my time out, even if I'm doing skillful things, I've left the open breach of connection with her. And so I need to reassure her that I will be back and that she'll get a chance to finish whatever she needs to. And that's that's the that's what we call the avoider engagement where

I'm still staying engaged even though I'm taking space. So imagine I'm backing away from you while still leaning towards you, saying, I'll be back, I'll be back, rather than F you, I'm out of here, whatever. because that leaves an open breach in the in the connection. Right. Now I go take care of myself and get myself grounded through for me it's exercise, nature, phone calls, self compassion practice, you know, a walk, whatever.

And then I'll go back and I'll finish the conversation with her. Or I temperature check to see if we're in a spot to finish the conversation and then re repeat that until we get through it. So that's just an example of of how I do things inside the relationship. Now, in order to do that in the relationship, the bigger, broader thing is what is the lifestyle change? And we we use a couple of things probably very similar, I'm guessing, to what you do. We have something called the daily charge.

Which is a set of ways to try to have connection with the best parts of yourself every day, connection to other people, hobbies, attunement and mindfulness, proper rest, relationship with God or spirituality, and then exercise, physical exercise. We encourage our clients to establish regular habits of all of those things, maybe not fully daily, but we call it the daily charge. Are you charging your heart every day?

And if you're charging your heart every day, and then we also teach them self-compassion and we drill it into them over and over and over again, you know, practice your self-compassion every time you feel shame. Every time you feel shame. And self-compassion is this way of approaching yourself with kindness and curiosity rather than judgment and criticism. That builds that builds your shame resiliency if you're doing the daily charge and the self-compassion, and then you're also doing your own trauma work or whatever.

Tyler Patrick (58:37.464)
That's like the tri effecta of good work for recovery. Then then you can hold space for your partner a lot better.

Jake Kastleman (58:44.054)
Yep, exactly. Yeah, and I I tell people, you know, you can you can only be as in touch with and and open to and present for someone else's pain as you can for your own.

Tyler Patrick (59:01.378)
That's empathy.

Jake Kastleman (59:02.75)
And that's a daily practice, right? It can't just be, okay, I'm gonna whip this out in this moment when my wife is having a hard time. It's no, this is something I've been practicing every day. Now it's game day. And I've been I've been running scrimmages. I couldn't practice. Right. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. And I and I think that I really didn't know how to practice self-compassion, self-empathy.

Until for for me, parts work was really big. Yeah. IFS was really big to gain that self relationship and to be able to start to to practice self compassion, self empathy. Cause you can actually approach yourself. I love what you said about pulling that part out. I do think of parts work when you say that. Yeah. You know, it's kind of a I don't know what would you put that in? C B T. I'm not sure what you'd put that in, but it's

Tyler Patrick (59:51.438)
Yeah, I think it I think Partswork is perfect for that. I love Partswork by the way too. I think it's so helpful for people w especially with the the clients that we're trying to

Jake Kastleman (59:59.982)
To help. Yeah. Yeah. And so just working with emotion, right? And you you talked about the emotion of shame. You're pulling it out. It's a separate entity. I find that so helpful, you know, whether it's through a parts work lens or it's an emotional mindfulness lens. Just I was I spent a lifetime so identified with my emotions, right? And and we actually we actually say this I am angry, I am sad.

I am what what will the other ones be? I am afraid, right? Instead of I feel, which actually from what I'm aware, this is in Spanish, I I have, they say I have sadness or I have anger, right? English, we we say I am this. And so training myself to, you know, I describe it like you have your consciousness, your spirit.

inside your body and you're you're practicing being a witness to the emotion that occurs inside body and mind, right? I am not my body and brain. I'm I'm the steward of my body and brain. I love the steward of my emotions. Cause a lot of people would be like, well, hold on a second. I mean I've developed this addiction, so isn't that who I am? And like if I don't say, okay, I detached that from myself, aren't I making an excuse? And it's no

You aren't any of those emotions. You aren't your addiction. You aren't those things. They're carried in your body and in your brain. And you have a responsibility to be a steward over them. That's a massive shift just to practice being a witness and steward to emotions rather than saying, I'm angry. That means I'm a bad person. I'm in a bad place. I shouldn't feel this way.

Tyler Patrick (01:01:45.174)
It's beautiful. It takes I think that's one reason why mindfulness becomes so important in recovery to what you're saying is because it takes consciousness to shift from I am to I feel or I have, right? And so that consciousness is I think really, really important and it's so, so powerful. You're spot on there.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:06.538)
Yeah, it's it's it's huge. And it sounds too simple to work, right? And and I heard it for years from people. I was like, mindfulness is so dumb. And then I started practicing that. I was like, my gosh, this is so helpful. Right down to the simple practice of being aware of emotion in the body and opening up space in the body for the emotion and just just witnessing it, being with it. There's anger here. I feel anger.

And a and then the parts work teaches you to ask questions to the anger. Okay, anger, you've shown up. What are you trying to protect me from? And actually appreciating that it's trying to help.

Tyler Patrick (01:02:47.67)
Yes. How are you trying to serve me? Right. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:50.606)
Yeah. That's so compassionate. Or the cravings. How are you trying to serve me right now? What is it that you're trying to bring me? And that that changed that changed the game for me.

Tyler Patrick (01:03:03.668)
It's almost of its own paradox because we're not trained to look at it that way where if I have a craving, I've been taught fight it, kill it, run from it, get rid of it. And actually the best way to get through the craving is to go towards it and be like, hey, what are you trying to do for me right now? And most people go, You're gonna act out if you do that. And in reality what you do is you go and you go, wait, I'm not even like feeling like it's not even a sexual charge right now. I'm just feeling stressed about this meeting at work that I'm gonna go into like

Okay, well I need a phone call and I need some deep breathing and I'll be okay. And now the sexual charge goes comes down like Yeah, it's such such a it's a paradox compared to how we think we should be.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:43.822)
Exactly. And I actually just had an experience with this the other day, what was it, a month ago or so. I'm out on with my wife on a date, right? if we go like once a month. We've got two two little little kids right now. And so making that happen is is difficult sometimes. So we're out on our date, right? we're out at this we're like walking, it's down it's it's what would it be? Provo Center Street.

Sure, you've been been down there at some point. kind of fun little shops and things. We're in this clothing store and we're just like looking at clothes. We're just having a good time. Like I'm just like so grateful to be finally be with my wife and get some one-on-one time because it it's so rare when you have little kids and everything, right? And I'm just like, this is great, feeling good. And then all of a sudden, I get this this cra craving that pops up for masturbation and it starts to kind of rise.

And rise. And I'm just like, what the right? And even after so many years, sometimes it's just like, where is this coming?

Tyler Patrick (01:04:50.806)
Why this come up? Why is this coming up?

Jake Kastleman (01:04:54.038)
And so so I did what I teach, right? Okay, okay, I'm gonna go into self-awareness and I'm gonna do some parts work. I'm gonna recognize what's being said. You need this. This is, you know, this this craving is building because like you're a guy, and now like you gotta get this fixed, and you you know, this would feel so it's almost just the feeling rather than the message. And so I'm paying attention to that. Okay. And I know that.

So much of the time, I'd say all the time, there's there's nervous system or emotional dysregulation going on. And that's what's fueling the craving. And so I'm like, okay, something's going on with my nervous system right now. Something's going on with my emotions. I appreciate that there's a part of me trying to help me. Okay. So I'm kind of speaking to that part. Thank you for trying to show up. What's kind of going on deeper? And when it comes back to this avoidant and anxious attachment stuff, I notice a part of me deeper in my psyche has just said.

Could things really be this good in your relationship? Could you actually be out having a good time? Well. What if you get dropped? And what if this turns into, you know, conflict? Or what if something goes wrong? And it's there's a part that kid in me is starting to back out, if you will, or that part's trying to just drag me away from the happiness, like this isn't safe. Don't trust you, can't be here. And so

Tyler Patrick (01:06:14.861)
Trust it.

Jake Kastleman (01:06:19.456)
Again, not fighting, because if I fight, it's not gonna work, but just little Jake, I see you, dude. I don't know if you know if you know Drew Drew Drew Boa says, if you know Drew Boa, he says, you know, he always speaks to little Drew, right? And so I learned this from him. Little Jake, I see you, man. I know you spent a lot of your life not feeling like you could be close to people, and that this feels scary for you. And I get that. That's okay. I'm here for you.

In just a few minutes of that, I'm calm enough now that I can be a little more present and and be there and continue to have a good time with my wife.

Tyler Patrick (01:07:00.462)
That's a glorious story, dude. That's beautiful. Beautiful story. Everything we're talking about, yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:07:04.43)
Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's for so many of us we just have not been taught that at all. And we just don't know how to approach those feelings, you know?

Tyler Patrick (01:07:17.784)
Yeah, amen. A hundred percent. And then we're left in that dance that so many people play that even without the addiction, they're in that wrangle all the time, trying to keep people just close enough but not too close and never get the depth of what they're looking for.

Jake Kastleman (01:07:35.49)
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So let's talk about a couple more things, Tyler. I know we're getting not too far from from the end here, but when it comes to this avoidant anxious dynamic and a lot of these guys that will will cross into defensiveness, overexplaining, right, feeling like we're being attacked. when none of those things are necessarily actually they're not actually happening. It's in our perception.

Right. And it's up to us and holding our own boundaries and holding our own grounded space. But how can a man respond when he feels criticized or attacked without collapsing, without going into defensiveness or over explaining, turning the conversation into a fight? How can he respond in that moment when his wife begins to to criticize? Right.

Tyler Patrick (01:08:27.308)
Yeah, it's good question. It's really, really difficult because we're right back to what we're talking about with the internal story that's kicking up. Now that defensiveness is being pushed by other emotions. And those other emotions, if we're looking at it from a parts perspective, they're attached to other parts that need attention. And now I'm interacting with my partner. My parts need attention, but I also don't have the time to give them. And so I'm trying to give a good response to my partner. It's it's a it's a hard dance.

Jake Kastleman (01:08:52.94)
And inside it's just the the pressure's just mounting and mounting and mounting and you're you're getting f completely flooded.

Tyler Patrick (01:08:58.904)
Hundred percent. Yeah. That's that's something that I actually liked about the the masculine relationship is he gave some specific breathing t tools for how to help in the moment. And there's another D B T skill called the half smile skill that I that I use frequently and I partnered that up with another DBT skill called the observed breath skill. So my partner's coming to me and I feel that rising, I feel that churning start to happen.

You'll notice this. I don't know what it's like for you, but my physiology will often tell me that I'm in danger of saying or doing something that I'm gonna regret. When my my jaw clenches, my face flushes, my hands start to sweat, and I feel all that like sinking in my shoulders and my chest. I'm either gonna go into defensive mode or my default is usually to just shrink and disappear. but either either one of them is a shame response, right? And if I notice those things, I can

Soften my posture, which means I go into a half smile. This is gonna look cheesy, but just keep your mouth closed and tip your tongue to the tip of your your your mouth like that. It's a half smile and then breathe. And notice yourself go bre breathe and make sure it goes all the way down and touches your belly button when you breathe.

Jake Kastleman (01:10:03.086)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (01:10:13.534)
Mm.

Tyler Patrick (01:10:14.872)
And I even let it out like a sigh like that. And that sometimes causes problems in my relationship because my wife is like, Why are you sighing? What are you so upset about? And and and what I've had to tell her is this is me regulating so I can be present. So if I take a de like if I take a deep breath.

Okay. Now my whole physiology is easing into, hey Tyler, you can do this. It also buys me time to do all that extra work in my head of saying, This isn't about me, this isn't personal, this is either a cry for help or an act of love. Be for her. Be for her. So

Okay, babe, tell me more. Tell me tell me again. Say that one more time. Or hey, could you take out the attack and just tell me what's really going on for you? so so now I'm I've bought myself time and I'm regulating my body. And if I regulate my body, then I can start getting access to the other skills that I'm trying to develop of curiosity and empathy, holding space, those kinds of things. But it all hinges on that instant regulation of the body.

Jake Kastleman (01:11:23.34)
Hm. Or like that. Yes. And so often we can we can easily forget to do that, think it won't make a difference.

Tyler Patrick (01:11:33.366)
It's autopilot. Like our body is doing what it automatically wants to. And so again, the linchpin here is consciousness. My face is flush, my jaws clenched. Sometimes my wife will actually point it out now and she's like, Tyler, you're and I'm like, No, I'm not. And she's like, Your jaw's clenched and I'm like, Well, it's I'm not mad. And then she's like, Okay, well you can call it whatever you want, but like you know

Jake Kastleman (01:11:54.159)
I was I was talking with one of my clients about this the other day. He's like, Well, I wasn't angry, I was just mad and I'm

Tyler Patrick (01:12:00.212)
Like

Jake Kastleman (01:12:02.976)
I don't I think those are the same to me.

Tyler Patrick (01:12:04.82)
Whatever. As long as you don't get to be right, you can call it whatever I w you want, right?

Jake Kastleman (01:12:10.198)
Right. Right. I think yeah, to me it's like let's just simplify it. You're feeling anger. And I and I think like it's hard with those emotions, like so so many of us that carry addiction, and we were talking about this in group last night. shame is also attached to the emotion. I should not feel this. It is bad for me to feel this. Why am I feeling this? I need to make it and the resistance, I need to make it go away.

Right. How do I make this stop? I can't deal with it. Right. So not only am I feeling anger or defensiveness, but I'm also unconsciously judging myself for feeling it, feeling ashamed of feeling it. Now it's ex extremely intense. And, you know, different guys get different messages on this. For me, I felt that anger was something I was really ashamed of. And it's something that I dealt with throughout my whole life. It's always been probably the primary emotion I've struggled with the very most.

And so much of that, so many of my challenges with that have been the coupling of shame with it, of anger is a bad emotion and I should not feel it. And part parts work is what changed the game and is I've continued to work on that. Right.

Tyler Patrick (01:13:26.658)
That's so important in in in like you look at a long term recovery, it's it's moving the energy with which you live your life systematically from shame to a source of love as the primary one. And we we call that what you just described is we call that adding suffering to pain. So you're already in pain and now you're gonna beat yourself up over it and suffer over it too. Like why you why are you adding suffering to your pain already? Like, let's just deal with the pain.

And stop the self-judgment, stop the self-criticism, stop the self. We think it's motivating us when in reality it's just piling it on. It's just adding suffering.

Jake Kastleman (01:14:02.88)
Yes, exactly. Right. We're we think we're gonna overcome it by just making ourselves feel really bad about it. And it doesn't work that way. Doesn't work that way. So what are some initial steps that, you know, if a couple kind of finds themselves in this dynamic where the woman is constantly trying to pull in, the man is constantly trying to push out, right, under stress. What steps can they start taking together in their communication with one another in

Tyler Patrick (01:14:10.634)
Never works.

Jake Kastleman (01:14:31.082)
in in helping support each other in forming a healthier dynamic or how to really share what to say to one another in the moment or what to work on.

Tyler Patrick (01:14:41.998)
That's a great question. I I'd say the first thing that you can do together is start to just identify it. You know, EFT, emotional focus therapy calls it the dance. they call it the tango of disconnection. But if you if you start to identify your patterns as a couple, so in a maybe a grounded space when you're there and you're starting to hear these things, go, Well, maybe this is us. Sit down together and say, let's I let's start identifying the actual dance that we do.

And if we can identify it, now we're on the same team identifying the dance. Now we can start to recognize it. And when we start to recognize it, one of us needs to be able to identify it without blaming the other. So, hey, it looks like we're going into the dance or we're going into our cycle or we're doing this we're doing the dance of disconnection. Whatever whatever whatever you're gonna call it. So that now it's so now it's conscious. Let's let's get it conscious and then

When we recognize that it's conscious, we look at am I the anxious one or the avoidant one? The anxious partner, we encourage to do what we call pursuer softening, which is they're ready to go jump over the top and hurry and fix this thing. And it's like, can we help you slow your approach? Can we get you breathing? Can we get you grounded? Can we get you asking maybe some curious questions instead of expressing everything you need to feel right now? Can you invite

your avoidant partner into the space with you rather than chasing them out of it. And and then the we do the avoidant engagement, which is, okay, I need to ground myself. I need to get my body regulated. And now you need to turn around and you need to go into meeting your partner with maybe holding some space, showing some empathy. Now, in order to do all of that, both partners need to be doing their individual

shame and trauma work. Because the shame and trauma work allows for you to then recognize and practice some of those things that that I'm mentioning right now.

Jake Kastleman (01:16:45.326)
Now, if a person's partner is not interested in doing that work, I see this a lot. The betrayed partner says, Well, this is all your fault, so fix yourself and then everything will be good. How can that man 'cause they they often feel, I can't say anything 'cause yeah, I caused the pain. So what can I possibly say? How can he have that conversation or how can he help? Or what what is his role? What should he do in that dynamic when his partner says, I don't need help. I don't need to do that.

Tyler Patrick (01:17:15.564)
Yeah, the the the that's a good question. And you can you don't blame the partner who's been betrayed. It's not their fault, so to speak, right? Mm-hmm. I would push back on that and say, you know, if if my daughter got hit by a car today and broke her leg, it's not my fault or her fault that she got hit by the car, but I'm for sure gonna take her to the hospital and get her leg mended.

Right. And so if you're dealing with a broken heart, it's not your fault, but you still have a broken heart, and the only place to get it mended is between you and a higher power, pretty much. and so so why suffer longer waiting for justice to be served when in reality your heart needs to be mended? you you only allow him to continue to hurt you more the longer you wait to mend your own heart. so again, I'm not I don't mean to sound that in a lecturing way. I get it, I understand it, it makes sense.

The beautiful thing about what we're talking about here is that it only takes one partner to change the dance. It it works better if both partners are on board and have a language to speak and now they're not taking things personally. But if the guy you're working with, let's say, starts to learn these things and starts to apply his own shame resiliency and he starts to hold some structure and inside of the relationship, which is so hard when you're the one who's d who's done the breaking of the trust. But guess what, man? Like

If you really love your wife and if you really want to help her, you need to be sensitive, you need to be understanding, you need to be empathetic, you need be ridiculously patient, but you need to hold your shape in order for her to love you and trust you. And if you don't learn to do that, you're doing her and yourself a disservice. And so if you start to learn these principles, then you step in and you start having some boundaries, kind boundaries, where you get in a fight and

And she's got this massive target that's easy to throw all the crap at. Like she had indigestion today and somehow it's your fault because you betrayed her. Right. Like that's that's the way it will work for you. And if you take that personally, you're not gonna help her. But if you start to go, hey, I can tell you're you're really hurting. Like this just happened with me and my wife a couple of days ago. She came in, she started going, like, Tyler, I'm I'm so upset at I'm so upset at this, I'm so upset at this. And I was like, it makes sense that you're upset and

Tyler Patrick (01:19:32.534)
I'm not gonna be the one who takes all the brunt of that anymore. Like if you want to complain, if you want to share, if you want to talk, if you want me to hear you and hold space, I will do that. But I can't take ownership for some of this stuff anymore. Right? Your heart hurts. I see that your heart hurts. I can't fix it. I'm here for you. I'll support you any way that I can. What do you think's gonna be best for your heart right now? Right? Like that's a hard thing to do when you've done the betraying, but you have to learn to step into that.

Because you're inviting deeper connection and you're inviting things to go right. You're inviting secure attachment when you show up that way.

Jake Kastleman (01:20:09.822)
Mm-hmm. And I and I I would say it's important to mention that again, it's a it's a practice. This is not straightforward. It's it's it's messy all the time, I would say. until it there's more coherence, there's more in integration within the relationship, you know, there's you start to to be able to build some kind of momentum and to come together.

At first, when you do these things, it's like this isn't working. When I try to say that stuff to her, she just lashes out. So why should I even try? And it's like we have to go through maybe one way of saying is a proving process, right? And not to prove yourself to her, but to prove I'm going to stick to this and I'm going to continue to practice it. I'm going to be that space of groundedness and safety until at whatever point she begins to actually trust.

that that's happening and that is so hard to do.

Tyler Patrick (01:21:12.008)
It's hard. It's hard. We cut yeah, consistent effort and action over time. I rem I remember when I started to learn some of the things that we teach people now and I started practicing them at home, it was like the minute I'd start practicing, my wife would be like, Hey, stop the therapy bullcrap. Like we're not doing we're not doing this. Like, stop it. Like, well, what am I supposed to do? Like, but but if you stay the course, if you stay consistent, all of a sudden it's like, wow, this

Jake Kastleman (01:21:34.808)
Right.

Tyler Patrick (01:21:40.674)
We can actually we can actually learn to use this together and it actually really works. Like you know, I can I can honestly say that after, you know, twenty six years of marriage, going through hell together, like I have the best relationship, best marriage out of anybody that I know. And and it's a testament not just to the work I've learned about, but the things she's done as a result, where she's gone and said, Hey, wait a second.

I do take things a little too personally and wow, I gotta heal my heart. And man, that trauma really, really hurt. And I don't know how to trust anymore. And yeah, of course, of course, of course. But then she started wrestling with things and started doing the same kinds of work, shame resiliency work, trauma work that I was doing. And then we started to get a common language and what you just said is like it's like hard. We call it the messy middle, where you're not in crisis anymore.

But you're also not in like a great relationship anymore. That middle space is hard. It's it's really br it's messy because there's not a linear path. Like we have to go mess up with each other. And that's all things emotionally, communication, sexually. I we have to have enough trust and an idea about a process to go practice in messy ways until we start to get it right. But if you do it, it's beautiful.

Jake Kastleman (01:22:57.133)
Yes.

Tyler Patrick (01:23:00.596)
It it's amazing. It it it forges you together even stronger.

Jake Kastleman (01:23:05.56)
Yeah. One of the things that you know, we'll we'll wrap up here, but one of the things I was thinking about is how many years I spent trying to frankly j judge my wife into changing, right? Yeah. And you should do this and you should do that and you should go to therapy. And 'cause we had all our issues with trust and things and addictions that I had that'd be less obvious, right, than the pornography addiction I I carried.

But nonetheless, still addictions. And I had, in order for her to get healing in multiple areas of her life, I had to back off of trying to be the controller and the leader of her healing. I had to stop judging, stop criticizing, and start supporting and loving. And I'm still learning to do that now, right?

But she could not go through her healing process until I until I stopped with that hyperfixation on trying to make her be happy, which did the exact opposite.

Tyler Patrick (01:24:12.038)
Exactly. The press you put more pressure on the very thing that she's already struggling to to work on. Yeah. And I agree with that a hundred percent. I I found that more and this is where secure attachment comes back into this, the more that I can allow my wife to be my wife as her own individual person and love her no matter what, the more she chooses to do the work in blossom. And the more that she does that for me, the more I choose.

To want to become the kind of man that I was always designed to be in the first place. It's it's like this weird thing where we need connection, but we actually need to let the other person be their own person at the same time. And it's it's really beautiful when it starts to happen right.

Jake Kastleman (01:24:53.75)
So paradoxical. And love is the answer. I think is one one way of saying that. It's really good. Really good. Well, Tyler, you and Brandon do amazing work. If people want to find you, work with you, join your groups one-on-one, whatever you guys have going on, where can they go to get connected with you? I'll be sure to put links in the show notes.

Tyler Patrick (01:25:14.51)
Cool. Yeah, we'll just we'll just give you this link for the show notes. We actually have a specific link just for this episode. So therapy brothers dot org slash no more desire and it'll send you directly to a picture of Jake that we'll then funnel into the Therapy Brothers with a couple of extra episodes that should be specific for your for your listeners. And that's probably the best way to plus best place to go.

Jake Kastleman (01:25:40.76)
Therapybrothers.org slash no more desire. Okay. You'll see a picture of my mug. You'll know you're in the right place. Awesome. Awesome. Such a pleasure to have you on the show, Tyler. Thanks for coming.

Tyler Patrick (01:25:43.128)
Yep.

Tyler Patrick (01:25:48.472)
That's right.

Tyler Patrick (01:25:53.688)
Man. Appreciate it, man. Thanks for all the good work you're doing in the world.

Jake Kastleman (01:25:57.304)
Thanks, brother. Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. If you want to take your sobriety to the next level,

Check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn, or my free ebook, The Ten Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome porn addiction. And you can find them at Nomoresire dot com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful,

And selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.

Jake Kastleman (01:27:17.1)
Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,

Please dial nine one one or go to your nearest emergency room.