161: Why Porn Addiction Feels Like Connection: The Neuroscience of Loneliness, Attachment & Pseudo-Joy With Chris Coursey

Porn addiction and loneliness are often more connected than we realize. What feels like a powerful sexual craving may sometimes be your brain reaching for something deeper: connection, belonging, emotional relief, or the experience of feeling wanted and known.

In this episode, I sit down with Chris Coursey of Thrive Today to explore why pornography can begin to feel like a form of connection—and why that “connection” ultimately leaves us hungry for more.

Chris introduces the concept of “pseudo-joy,” a counterfeit version of the relational joy our brains are designed to experience with real people. Porn can offer stimulation, attention, fantasy, and temporary relief without requiring vulnerability, patience, rejection, conflict, or the other challenges of genuine relationships. But because it cannot provide real attachment or belonging, we can walk away feeling even more lonely and disconnected than before.

We also explore the relationship between porn addiction and attachment, why some men struggle to recognize or express their emotional needs, and how earlier relational experiences can shape the ways we respond to loneliness, stress, rejection, and overwhelm.

One of my favorite parts of this conversation is that Chris does not leave us with insight alone. We talk about practical relational and emotional regulation skills that men can begin developing right now.

We also discuss something I believe is incredibly important for porn addiction recovery: relational skills are recovery skills. Learning how to listen, receive feedback, recognize when another person needs space, stay emotionally present, and build genuine relationships can reduce our dependence on counterfeit forms of connection.

The goal is not simply to remove pornography from your life. It is to build a life increasingly filled with the things pornography was trying to imitate—joy, belonging, emotional safety, rest, purpose, love, and real connection.

CHRIS COURSEY LINKS:

>> RELATIONAL TEMPERATURE FREEBIE

This free assessment measures your ability to stay relationally engaged:

• Identify your particular triggers
• Recognize when you're losing joy
• Learn how to stay in joy!

>> CHRIS’ ONLINE FEATURES

Whether podcast or video interviews, articles or book reviews, you’ll find Chris Coursey spreading joy and encouragement all over the internet!

Link to Blog Article for this Episode

Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, the free online community, my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.

If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Learn more about the Academy.

If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Learn more about working 1-on-1 with Jake Kastleman.

My gratitude for the music in this episode (in order of appearance) goes to Ievgen Poltavskyi, Andrii Poradovskyi, and Aleksey Voroninfrom Pixabay.

Note: No More Desire provides coaching, education, community, and recovery support. This content is not therapy, medical care, psychiatric treatment, or couples counseling.

Transcript

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Jake Kastleman (00:00.182)
Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.

Jake Kastleman (00:22.51)
When they're good, they're a place of the greatest joy. When they're not, they're a place of the deepest pain. What's your relationship like? Is it painful, joyful, somewhere in between? Did you and your wife once have something special, but now it feels empty or even hostile? Do you sometimes wonder what you saw in each other? The dating years were blissful, but married years have lost that spark, and you hope for something greater, but wonder if it's even possible.

Rekindle. Do you long for closeness, but the grudges, resentments, and distrust prevent such a thing from even existing? The men I work with often experience these pains, my friend. Pornography addiction is just one of the many things that has sapped their marriages of passion and joy. I'm here to tell you that you and your wife can find happiness again. Today, my guest Chris Corzy and I discuss this relational joy and finding closeness.

In marriage. We talk about what's getting in the way of this closeness, driving your porn addiction and causing you to feel disconnected. We discuss how to quiet your mind, get connected, support each other, and become a team again in love and happy. For nearly 30 years, Chris has been developing and practicing brain-based solutions to make relationships work. He started out as a specialist in severe trauma and abuse and as a pastor.

He is now a relationship guru, trainer, speaker, and published author with 10 books in print. If you want to connect with Chris or partake in his work, you'll find his links in the show notes, including a free assessment to identify what's troubling your relationship. Our conversation is truly powerful, and I hope it is a blessing to you and your family. Before we dive in, a reminder to download my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings, or sign up for my free workshop, The 8 Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn.

These resources are your next step to get sober, and you'll find them at Nobledesire.com slash tools. All right, let's get started.

Jake Kastleman (02:34.478)
Chris, what awesome work you're doing, man. What a great person you are. It is such a joy to have gotten to know you a bit and just to see your spirit. I feel like you've a spirit of just of love and compassion and joy. That is how I would describe you. So it's such a pleasure to have you, man. Wow.

Chris Coursey (02:53.442)
Thank you so much, Jake. It's a true honor to be here. I just feel privileged getting to know you. It's been great. And I have a feeling we're gonna have some really good conversations today.

Jake Kastleman (03:05.41)
Yes, absolutely. Well, if our first conversation is any sign of that, I sense the same. So so so cool, man. We're gonna dive straight in here. Really, today, kind of the theme of what we're talking about. We're gonna see I'm all about organic conversation. So we see where it goes, right? But within the spectrum, more or less, of pornography as pseudo connection, right? you have so many great things to say on this. And so I want to discuss all around this topic and again just see where it goes. So

I want to start by talking about what is the brain actually looking for when a man turns to porn? So you've described the human brain as being wired for this experience of when we f met met the first time, someone is glad to be with me, right? So when a man is repeatedly turning to pornography, what do you believe his brain may actually be searching for underneath the sexual desire? And

How does this really define the way we understand addiction?

Chris Coursey (04:07.562)
You know, these are such good questions, Jake. And I have to say, the work of Dr. Alan Shore out of UCLA, this guy has written a number of books. I think he kind of moved into a library back in the day and just lived in a library while he was researching all this this work, all this brain science on how the brain works. So he was actually the first to really come out and say that the brain.

Runs on the fuel of glad to be together joy. And joy is described not as happiness, but as relational glad-to-be togetherness. So if you think about it, we all know this feeling of when you walk into a room, somebody turns and they notice you and they're glad it's you. You'll see it on their face. you'll see how they like carry their body, you'll see this very authentic response, reaction. Maybe you'll hear it in their voice.

This joy, your brain registers joy when someone is just lights up. They light up to see you. And and Shore's work would say, you know, basically that joy is when you feel like you're the sparkle in someone else's eyes. And there's something profoundly impactful about being the sparkle in someone else's eyes. And developmentally, as an infant, think about what is an infant looking for, right? When an infant is

Of course, getting food, getting comfort, getting connection. Ultimately, the infant is monitoring the face, whether it's mom or dad or grandma or grandpa, whoever's available. Infants looking at the face to see is this person glad to be with me, glad to see me. And it's not the words, right? The the brain at this, the the the there's actually a center in the brain that we call the joy center.

It's primarily nonverbal in the right hemisphere. So it's not the words that's being spoken. It is this look on the face when someone locks eyes with us and we see that they're glad to be with us. And this is euphoric, right? So endorphins are released when little ones sees this glad to be together response. Endorphins.

Chris Coursey (06:23.002)
Make little one feel alive. Dopamine is like, I want more of this, right? Dopamine is this anticipation, anticipation reward. Like, hey, I want more of this. And they've done studies, Jake, where they've had infants and and a parent interact. And in some of the research, they actually had the parent like pause, don't show anything on your face.

And you would watch, it's kind of heartbreaking to watch, but you'd see the little one looking at the face, locking eyes, and the mom is like, there's there's like no response. And little one is like, wait a minute. Like you could see the just this response. Little one is not a happy camper. Like, wait a minute, what's going on here? And and distress is right around the corner when there's not a glad to be with you response. So what we now know about like, you know,

Porn and sexual addiction is ultimately my brain's wired for joy. My brain is wired for someone who's glad to be with me. It's this high, this connection. And when you build joy with someone, you're bonding with them. And so the brain is ultimately a bonding machine. So what happens is when I'm not getting the joy that I need when I need it, in the in the amounts that I need it, what happens is.

There's a lot of loss that's produced. And that means just like the infant who's looking at the face, expecting a response, and the parent just like, you know, stone cold response, no reaction. That hurts. So little one experiences distress. In fact, the survival circuit in the brain will start to go off and say, hey, you're gonna die if you don't get what you need.

Just like if you don't get food when you need it or oxygen when you need it or or water or or warmth when you need it, the survival response in one tenth of a second will register the lack of joy and say, Hey, I'm gonna die if I don't get this connection that I need. Like we are wired and made for glad to be together joy. So it gets the system gets hijacked with porn.

Chris Coursey (08:31.806)
And what I like to kind of call it this pseudo-joy, right? So it's like, okay, if I'm not getting the joy that I need, there's distress, there's pain. I feel I feel lonely. I I feel alone. I feel disconnected. And Jake, that's some of the worst pain for the brain is when I want connection and connection's not there. That's where I'm now vulnerable to something to like temporarily make that pain go away.

And it just so happens in the brain orgasm is one of the things that temporarily turn off those pain signals in the attachment center. So this is why we get we get hooked on, you know, these other patterns or behaviors that kind of you know really are just hijacking what I what I really want is glad to be together joy. that's that's what I want. And you know

We don't like feeling alone, disconnected, abandoned, or rejected when we're searching for connection. And so the brain's highly motivated to avoid that pain. And that's where porn comes in as a way of like trying to get numb, trying to get some relief. and as you know, as we know, the relief doesn't last, the pain's gonna come back. Ultimately, what the brain needs is connection.

We want connection. We're made for relationships.

Jake Kastleman (10:02.742)
So well, so well said. So one of the things that this brings up for me, Chris, as you talk about this connection that we so desperately need as people, I can picture myself 10 years ago, or I can picture one of my clients or the people listening to this thinking, okay, so what you're saying is I really need that. Glad to be with you, feeling from the people around me. I need to feel that connection. Well, guess what?

My wife doesn't like me or I don't have friends around me. So what you're saying is I will keep going to porn until I have that. So I just need other people to give me that. Why aren't they giving that to me? Yeah. Right. And what would your response or your advice, your insights be on that?

Chris Coursey (10:52.35)
You know, that's an excellent question. And that's a very common scenario for a lot of people. We're you know what, if we've been at this for a while, we probably have spouses that aren't glad to be with us, children that might not be glad to be with us, family, community meant right it. The reality is we we live in a world where it can be really hard to grow joy and

It's helpful to actually know this lens. It's helpful to know like how our brain works. At the end of the day, we are made for joy, joyful relationships, joyful interactions. And for a lot of us, we don't have a lot of joy. So the million-dollar question is: okay, how do I build joy? So the good news is you never outgrow the ability to grow joy, brain plasticity.

means that with the right ingredients over time, I can still grow new skills, develop new habits, right? With new experiences. Experiences basically shape the brain. So the the thing that we want to look at here is how do I build belonging around me? How can I be a source of joy to the people around me? And so if you think about it, the brain is an amp is an amplifier. So what

What that means is your brain's going to amplify something in the environment. If you've ever been in an argument with someone and someone gets kind of frustrated or or irritated, next thing you know, you're mad, and then they're more angry. And it's like quickly within like, you know, a short amount of time, everybody just mad or everybody's in a bad mood. It's like, what just happened? Right? The brain's an amplifier. Now the good news is the brain's also going to amplify the good stuff. So

How do I learn to live in my face, right? Because basically your face is a billboard. Every human brain, particularly the right hemisphere, is going to be scanning faces. When you walk into a room, people, whether they realize it or not, are going to look at your face and draw conclusions. The brain does this really quickly. It can look at a face and determine, well, can get a lot of information just by a glance. So

Chris Coursey (13:07.962)
You can be a source of joy. And when you are glad to be with other people, guess what? You're going to also build joy with people that you are glad to be with because they're gonna see it, they're gonna feel it. And and an example of this would be I remember going to the grocery store one day. I was waiting in line with my groceries and I noticed the guy working the cash register was not having a good day. He was hardly looking at the lady in front of me.

He was just not engaging. He looked like he was mad. He was basically offline. so I thought, you know, here's somebody that's probably having having a hard day. So I, you know, my turn came up with my groceries and I greeted him, right? not overwhelming. I didn't want to overwhelm the guy, but just like genuinely, hey, it's good to see you. How you doing today, right? Just genuinely interacting, engaging him. I was expressing my gratitude for his help.

And just really appreciating him. So I was like, you know, trying to interact with him without being pushy and so forth. And as I was interacting with him, at one point he looked up looked up at me and he said, do I know you? You know, like like do we know each other? You know, like I I can tell you just didn't what what do I do with this guy? You know that's exactly it, right? People know

Jake Kastleman (14:23.768)
Why are you being fun?

Chris Coursey (14:29.846)
I think the guy's used to probably get yelled at or grumped at. So here's some stranger like being kind and engaging him. And I said, no, honestly, I don't know. You've never seen you before, but just want you know, I'm really appreciate you. Thank you for your help today. So simple interaction. I was just genuinely, you know, feeling glad, glad to be with him, appreciating him. Nothing, you know, nothing major from my perspective. When I

Was was bagging my groceries. I watched him, and there's a person behind me came up with their groceries. And I noticed, you know what he did? He looked this person in the eyes with a smile. He greeted them and he was like engaged and interacting with this person. Night and day difference to how he treated the person in front of me and how he responded. So you see, you know.

The point here with joy is it's just, it's not something we should be sitting around and just waiting for lightning to fall from the from the sky so that somebody will be glad to be with us and fill our buckets. Actually, we can be a source of joy. We can be a source of life when we, you know, really it just at and the beginning of learning this, it takes a little bit of like being proactive, because for many of us it's not.

We don't think about being joyful or trying to spread joy. But the reality is, as we are present, we are relational, we engage people. Guess what's gonna happen? People are going to feel it. They're gonna see it in your face, they're gonna hear it in your voice, they're gonna watch it in your movements, your mannerisms, and if you know, and the words as well will make a difference. They're gonna feel it, and then their brain.

Is going to convey joy and you're going to be able to convey joy. So what happens with joy is when two people build joy, it it is amplified. It gets bigger. It's kind of like a campfire. You put a log or two on the fire, you put some kindling on the fire, it's it starts to go. So, in a sense, we have we we can feed this dynamic and be a source of joy. And in our marriages, right, or in our families.

Chris Coursey (16:42.252)
Where maybe joysta our joy levels have taken a hit. Right? Maybe there's not a lot of joy in this particular season. Well, the good news is we can work to be relational, to be present, to be glad to be with others, even if they're not glad to be with us. Their brain is still benefiting from a genuine joy reaction on my face when I walk come home and walk in the door. They may not know what to do with it. And again,

Joy is a high energy response. And the thing that we want to watch with joy is you don't want to overwhelm people. Because you know, if you get somebody coming in hot with a whole lot of joy, you're gonna get, whoa, let's go with this guy's a little you know, a little too much energy here, right?

Jake Kastleman (17:26.358)
What's he trying to get from me or why is he being

Chris Coursey (17:28.896)
Yes, exactly.

Jake Kastleman (17:31.15)
Something must be wrong with it.

Chris Coursey (17:33.418)
Something something must be wrong. And unfortunately, we live in a world where that is the case, right? Many of us have encountered people who are manipulative or even predatory. So we want to give a little space and grace here that keep in mind the goal is to be our authentic selves, to be joyful, peaceful, engage, you know, relational with people. We can't I can't control what other people do.

with my response. But what I can do is try to be present and peaceful and joyful in my life and interact with people and appreciate people. And I gotta say, that is what's going to actually start to grow some joy. You know, people who grow joy, they develop what I what I like, my colleagues and I call emotional capacity. And emotional capacity is when you grow joy, you increase your ability to carry and deal with the hard stuff.

So people who have a lot of joy are hard tree branches to break because joy gives us resilience. So people who have joy are really diff, they're hard to traumatize because they're resilient. So the good thing is as you grow joy, it's going to give you strength to resist those cravings when you get the all pseudo-joy alternatives, right?

That start to come up, which would be porn and these kinds of things. When those those thoughts or those feelings or those struggles start to come up, basically that's your brain trying to find a shortcut to feel connected when I feel lonely or to feel, you know, relief when I'm feeling like overwhelmed or anxious or depressed or something like that. So joy gives us strength to suffer well. Yes. And

Joy and and when I say joy, I'm also including rest and quieting, right? It's like joy and and quiet are are two sides of the same coin. We need glad to be together, joy, but we also need to be able to take a breather and quiet ourselves. So I encourage people. Some of us need a little more joy connection. Some of us need a little more rest and quiet. But we all we need both, but we need them in the right amounts.

Chris Coursey (19:51.082)
Right. So, like my wife, for example, she has a very high capacity for joy and interaction. So for her, she's always ready to build joy. For me, I actually need a little more quiet and rest. That's what helps me kind of feel like I'm a little more myself. So it helps to understand we need both joy and rest, but some of us we need a little more joy, some of us need a little more rest.

And it's a matter of knowing what time is it? Is it time for joyful connection? Is it time for rest? So I encourage couples to really work on practicing, you know, what time is it here? Are we ready for some joy or are we ready for some some rest? What is it that I need? And we need at the end of the day, we need both, but we just need them in the right amounts at the right time. You know.

Jake Kastleman (20:40.0)
Yeah, it's it's so so true. And this actually makes me think of a few different things. you talked about being you know, building joy in our lives, being a source of joy to those around us and that this is so much the solution, you know, 'cause we don't have any control over the actions of the people around us. I can only influence other people through my own actions, my choices, you know, my words.

Right. And I know for me, you know, one of the things I think of is earlier in my life when I I dealt with so much social anxiety as a kid, as a teen, and in my twenties. And what I realized, one of the things I realized is I needed to become somebody who

Felt more comfortable around others that I gen generated that sense of I like to be around people. And then others would feel that and they would gravitate toward me. And I didn't know how to do that when I was younger, but I cultivated more of that ability. And I think it does show on our face, right? If I feel that sense of just I'm so tense and I'm so nervous, people will look at me. And unfortunately, I think the call that was made a lot for people looking at me was.

Ooh, he he's not very approachable or he's got something going on or he's feeling angry or he's feeling whatever. Right. When inside it was I was just desperate to connect with people. Right. But on the outside, it looks like, ooh, I don't even want to talk to that person, right? Yeah. Yes. And so I think today that that that thing you talked about about being at the cash register. my gosh, I love that so much. I think that, you know.

Chris Coursey (22:07.509)
That's true. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (22:21.922)
Perhaps this guy has been yelled at sometimes or people have been angry with him, but probably what he experiences so often is people just not connecting at all. They're just neglecting to even acknowledge his existence. Even true. They they may not even say hi. They're looking down at their phone and scanning their groceries and put by. You know, they pay for their groceries and they go where these pieces of technology that we carry around just disconnect us.

Chris Coursey (22:44.216)
True.

Chris Coursey (22:49.144)
Totally. They do. Yes. They do.

Jake Kastleman (22:53.086)
Yes. And that's and that that is so sad to me. And I I think that those ways that we neglect to really connect with the people around us leads us to these pseudo joys, right? We're taking in often. Because we don't we don't connect the way we used to even. a hundred years ago, if you will. You're right. Not that long ago, but a long time ago. Yeah. What tell actually tell me more about that.

Chris, 'cause when you grew up there weren't smartphones. There were not. So what was your experience kind of in your youth and things and how people interacted versus what you see now and how that shifted?

Chris Coursey (23:37.324)
Yes. it's night and day. In in two thousand and twelve, my colleagues and I wrote a book called Joy Starts Here. And we were saying back then, that was a long time ago, almost fifteen years ago, we were saying what's happening with phones is we're losing relational skills. And you just hit the nail precisely on the head of this topic, right? We are

Are losing relational skills like glad to be together, joy. And it's so strange because my sons, who are teenagers, 14 and 16, all they know is screens. They grew up with screens. And when I grew up, we didn't have phones. We actually got outside and we played. I rode my bike. I played catch with the baseball, right? All kinds of stuff. We we came up with games. We used our imagination. There's so many things that we did back in the day.

Jake Kastleman (24:29.394)
Himself on quality work, service, and being there for those he loved. But underneath it all, Andrew was carrying a secret. His addiction to porn he'd had for more than 30 years. Andrew had never told anyone about his challenge. He'd kept it hidden even as he served in significant roles in his church, continuing to appear like he had everything together. The day his wife found out was traumatic. Andrew felt ruined, and his wife felt betrayed.

He didn't know what to do and doubted that he could ever overcome the habit he'd carried secretly for so many years. He began trying to will his way into recovery. He'd make it a few days or a little longer between relapses, but he could never get rid of it. When we started working together, Andrew told me I'm not a feelings guy. But after a few months, he learned that he carried stress, shame, and fear around with him, and he didn't even know it.

He also learned that these unconscious emotions were fueling his cravings for porn. I taught him how to become deeply aware of these emotions, how to relate to them and respond to them in a healthy way, bringing peace to his mind and diminishing his cravings. We also developed daily routines, boundaries, mindfulness exercises, and I gave him relationship guidance and a community to support him. He experienced a total ecosystem for recovery. Andrew is over a year sober today. I'm really happy for him.

Here's what he had to say. I struggled with porn addiction for more than 30 years. Working with Jake has taught me new habits, real processes that I can work into my daily routine. Jake genuinely cares about my well-being and success. I feel like I'm now able to be more present and that I can deepen my relationships with those I love. I never thought that I'd live a life free of porn. If you are struggling with porn addiction,

Head to no more desire dot com slash coaching to learn more and create your own success story. All right, back to the show.

Chris Coursey (26:29.024)
Now know a lot more about what's happening with in the brain with screens. There's a lot of really unhelpful, concerning things happening in the brain when we look at screens. everything from interrupting my sleep, right, is a big one with screens to really that pseudo joy, as you said. So be it helps to know my brain's designed for glad to be together, joy, visually, and low energy rest.

So what happens with a lot of us is when we're not building joy or our joy levels are low or we're not quieting like we need to, then we pick up our phones and we use our screens. This is where things go south. And you know, about two-thirds of us, the moment we pick up our phones, we hold our breath. You brace, we're bracing. Our body is bracing. And what researchers say about this, it's actually it's

The term's been around for quite a while, but it's called screen apnea or email apnea, like sleep apnea when you're sleeping and you hold your breath. Well, that's what happens with our phones. Two-thirds of us hold our breath. So I always tell people: notice your body when you pick up your phone, see if you're holding your breath. And what's happening is we hold our breath when there's a threat so that we can listen to see what's what's in my environment. So

Basically, what researchers say is the first thing we do in the morning is we tend to grab our phone. And as far as your body's concerned, that action is like looking a bear in the face. When you pick up a phone, your body is bracing. Your body is shifting in kind of this fight or flight response. We hold our breath. So what's happening is your brain is learning a pseudo alternative to joy and rest. What you really need.

Is face-to-face joy. There's this dopamine, right? This anticipatory hormone where I feel really good with this and I'm looking forward to having this again. Dopamine levels get hijacked with screens. And what happens when you when little one going back to the infant and the and the parent, when little one looks away, that resting is on demand release of serotonin. So serotonin is what helps us feel calmed and quiet.

Chris Coursey (28:51.432)
As the day goes on, your serotonin levels start to fluctuate as you're getting ready for bed. You're getting tired. So these chemicals are all getting kind of hijacked with screens. What we need is face-to-face, right? Face-to-face joy. And a lot of research has been done on play, right? When I grew up, we played, we came up with games, we interacted.

Children learn a lot of relational skills through play. I learned when I'm being too rough and I need to I need to back off. I learned, you know, what's fun, what's not. So many of these relational social skills develop through face-to-face interactions. Because our world is kind of getting shifting and take getting taken over by screens, we're losing these important relational skills that we rely on to make our relationships work.

And so what happens is instead of sitting down, right, interacting with my wife, looking at her, building some joy, resting together, instead of that, which is what my brain and my nervous system and my body are really want, I can sit right next to my wife and be on my phone. Both of us can be on our phones and we're sitting next to each other, not even like aware of the other.

Sometimes when we go out, if my wife and I go out on a date, you could just go to a restaurant, right? And look around, and you see every a lot of people are on their phones. So, from a brain perspective, what our relational brain wants, the relational centers in the right hemisphere of the brain want, is face-to-face interaction where you look at your wife's face, right? You are glad to be with her. It shows up, she has your attention.

Attention, she feels seen. Every human brain wants to feel seen, heard, and understood. And that happens when we look at people. Does my wife feel seen by me? Does she feel heard, or am I on my phone and she's talking to me, but I'm really not paying attention because I'm on my phone, which unfortunately I do sometimes. And my wife does not appreciate it when she's trying to talk to me. She's we've learned,

Chris Coursey (31:08.236)
We used to have this pattern when we would like have important conversations. I would reach over to my phone and I would do something like in the middle of an i of an interaction. And she would stop. She'd say, Honey, why are you picking up your phone? We were just talking about, you know, A, B, and C. Why are you getting on your phone? And I would go, Wow, you're right. I don't know. You know, and I'd put my phone away. And then a little while later, guess what? We're talking. I reach over.

Pick up my phone and she's like, honey, why are you picking up your phone again? I'm like, man, I don't even know. I can't I'm sorry, that's rude. And so this was happening. And one day I decided to like, why am I doing this? Because I knew it was rude. I knew it was like hurting her feelings. It wasn't helping our joy levels. I'll put it that way. It wasn't helping. Yeah. So it's

As I thought about it, Jake, the thing that I realized is when I get overwhelmed and I need what I need is a breather. What I need is a pause to like take a little quiet. Instead of doing that, what I was doing was picking up my phone as a pseudo-quiet. So what I started to do is when my wife and I are interacting, and I realize, wow, I I this is, you know, we've been at this a while, or the topic is intense. I just need like a pause.

What I'll now what I do now, Jake, I'll just say, honey, could we pause for a moment? Like, I just need a breather, even if it's like a 30-second breather. And when I've started to do this in our interactions, I don't pick up my phone. Right? So just learning this joy, this connection sequence of rest and quiet. Like that's the that's the rhythm that our nervous system likes. Joy, connection, rest, and quiet. So we connect.

And then we rest. When we connect and when we rest. And at our marriage retreats, one of the exercises we have couples do is they sit across from each other. And sometimes they'll hold hands. And we do a nonverbal connect and rest exercise. So the goal of this, it's a joy exercise. The goal is look at your spouse, non-verbally, you can't suppose anything, right? Show some joy. And when the joy is no longer growing in you or in your spouse, look away for a rest.

Chris Coursey (33:19.66)
So it's like a little dance. It's connect, we are building some joy, and then we r you know, we look away and we rest. And people are shocked at at their how little capacity they have for joy because they're just not used to building joy and they easily get overwhelmed or it feels awkward, like just sitting across from your spouse, looking at your spouse and not talking. But the goal is it's a joy rest. So we connect and then we rest. And

As couples start to practice this sequence, it actually becomes a very powerful exercise because it's a bonding exercise, because they're building joy and they're resting together. But at first, they think they have this really big capacity for joy and they're just going to like look at their spouse and build joy all day long. no. They just like it's a moment of joy, and it's like, okay, I need a little breather. And it's not a stare-down contest to see who can like look at each other the longest. The goal is.

Look at your spouse, delight. Show the joy on your face that you feel for your spouse. And when you feel like the joy is no longer increasing, then look away and rest. And when you're ready for more joy, look back at your spouse. It's a it's a you know a two, three-minute exercise can be really impactful, but it's a we're just not used to doing.

Yeah. These you know, these kinds of using these kinds of skills, it can feel very strange, but it helps people start to train their brain to run on the fuel of joy. Glad you got a joy.

Jake Kastleman (34:54.722)
Yes, thank you for sharing that. And I use use the word pseudo quiet, right? And I think in our culture now, our West modern Western culture, we are taught that rest and even self-care, it's about binging Netflix. It's about sitting on my smartphone and and scrolling reels. it's about sitting down at a video game console and playing a video game for an hour. We're

We're taught this is relaxation. This is a break. This is where you kind of get that recharge. And what you're saying, and what I know fell, is that is doing the opposite. It is.

Chris Coursey (35:40.982)
You're exactly right. You're exactly right, Jake.

Jake Kastleman (35:44.376)
And so then what happens to us when we don't get this rest? We're always get being we're overstimulated all the time.

Chris Coursey (35:53.824)
You're exactly right. And and I've heard Jim Wilder teach this based on la Alan Shore's work, that basically the the best predictor for lifelong mental health is whether or not I've learned to rest and quiet. So think about this. The best predictor for lifelong mental health comes down to can I quiet? Can I rest? That's the key. That is like the the foundational.

That's the bedrock for our mental emotional health is can I quiet myself? And there's millions of dollars and a lot of like people that understand the brain go into designing how these apps work, how these short videos work to grab your attention and get the the most feel-good chemicals out of you so that you want to keep going back.

To it. And I often tell my kids this because they love those short little videos, right? You can watch. I'm like, there's a lot of money that goes into how do I make this app as addictive as possible? And I'll tell you what's really revealing here. The people that create these apps, they don't let their children watch these apps and use these apps. The people that create this technology, a lot of them at least in interviews, will acknowledge.

They don't let their children use it because they know how damaging it is. They they know it's addicting and it's gonna basically hijack your brain so that you'll keep going back because they wanna use it, because ultimately at the end of the day, we're the product they want. Our attention is the product that they want, and our attention equals money to them. So

Jake Kastleman (37:40.194)
Yeah. It's and it's so it's so sad that so much money would be made off that of just just taking advantage and just destroying our our mental health and yeah and and so you know I I think about the fact that you were talking about this face to face connection, right? And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. We I think our unconscious mind, our limbic system, is really convinced when we're watching

Pornography, or we're engaging with social media, we're scrolling through people's posts, we're we're reading what they're saying, or we're just watching reels, that I am connecting with somebody. Yeah. And I think one of the most destructive parts of that with both pornography and social media is it trains me that there is no investment on my part, no risk, no

effort I put into that relationship. And so I begin to feel empty and purposeless and isolated in that experience. And then I just seek more and more and more of it because that's what I'm used to. It's like I I don't know how then to connect in a real relationship as well anymore. Yeah.

Chris Coursey (38:56.618)
You're exactly right, Jake. That is what happens. At the end of the day, because it's not real live human to human interaction, we we don't feel restored. We don't feel satisfied. And it becomes this kind of endless loop where our brain thinks if I keep using this and keep doing this and keep acting out in these ways, it's gonna actually make the pain go away or make this

You know, these feelings go away that I want to avoid, but it's not restorative. And that's kind of the key that I encourage people to look at. Are you restored when you do this? So what happens when you're in relationships building joy and resting together, whether it's with your your spouse or your kids or your friends, like whenever there's like real face-to-face interaction, you feel satisfied, you feel restored, you feel replenished and you feel full.

Right? It's kind of like what happens with high fructose corn syrup. High fructose corn syrup is designed basically to trick your brain so that you won't realize when you're full. You don't know when you're full. The the chemicals in high fructose corn syrup trick your brain so that you will keep ingesting it and drinking it or eating it. And you don't know that you're full. So, in a sense, this is what happens with these non relational, you know,

Pseudo-joy, pseudo-arrest activities, it's tricking us into thinking that we're satisfied and this is what we want and this is what we need. When the reality is it is robbing you blind, right? These things, these you know, porn basically is robbing you blind. It leaves us disconnected, it leaves us feeling empty.

More alone, fantasy doesn't actually fill us or satisfy us. What what the brain actually wants is real face-to-face interaction. There is no, there is nothing better for the relational parts of our brain, for our character, for our identity, for our heart than face-to-face interaction where people are glad to be together.

Chris Coursey (41:13.202)
And we feel like we belong, we feel connected, we have family, we have spiritual family, we we have a people. That's where the good stuff's going to grow. And the good news is, no matter how long we've we've been playing in the quicksand and getting stuck and getting dragged down, no matter how long we've been at it, the good news is it's never too late. The brain has this amazing capacity.

To grow and to change and to be transformed with genuine interactions and relationships with people. So, what my wife and I do is we train people to learn relational skills that ideally we would have learned the first three years of life. So, working with Jim Wilder, we started this about 25 years ago. We wanted to know like all this brain research was coming out saying, you know, if

Mom and dad and families have these skills. Ideally, the first three years of life, they will pass on these skills to little one. What Jim Wilder wanted to know was hey, many of us didn't get these skills the first three years of life. Can adults learn these skills later in life, like joy, right? Like rest? And what we found is we can with a little bit of practice with interaction, face-to-face fellowship, right? Family community.

We can learn these skills and we can train our brain to run on the fuel of joy. So we don't have to keep going back to what doesn't satisfy us, right? What leaves us feeling empty or shallow. We can build joy and learn to rest. And man, there is just nothing better, nothing more satisfying than being able to enjoy heart-to-heart fellowship, right? With what we care about.

Jake Kastleman (43:01.666)
Yeah. And I I I really like that you share kind of those relational skills. Go I wanna ask about those. I think you have I could be wrong on this, a list of about twenty relational skills, I believe. Yeah. Ma was it nineteen?

Chris Coursey (43:17.858)
Nineteen skills but there's really twenty 'cause we added a skill zero like later on. So there's really twenty, but it's still called the nineteen skills.

Jake Kastleman (43:26.83)
Well, you got it's gotta be an even number, obviously. I know for those of us who are, you know, all orderly and O C D, right? So so I I like this and I wanna talk about a few of those, but I wanna kinda mention, you know, you talk about how we are more resilient when we feel joy, you know, two two people can experience the exact same thing. they can experience the same stress of loneliness or know

a a hard day, one is going to release reach for these pseudo joys and another's going to reach for relationships or for something that's a healthy outlet for them. Right. So what happens developmentally that makes one person more prone to seek for the artificial relief? And what are these? It's kind of two questions. Yeah. That and then what are these what are a few of these relational skills we have to build?

Chris Coursey (44:20.682)
Yes, good good questions here. So it helps to understand like when we're little, when we're born, your brain learns a learns a template for life, right? What's called attachment patterns, which is basically have I learned that my needs are a good thing and that when I have needs, I'm hungry, need a new diaper, I'm cold or whatever it is. When I have a need, someone's there and they're gonna meet that need in a timely, predictable manner.

Those are attachment patterns or what used to be called attachment styles. So basically, these patterns are learned and in place by the time an infant's two months old, they've already learned a template for is it good to have needs and are my needs going to be met? Or are my needs just dismissed and ignored because mom and dad are checked out? Or mom and dad interact with me when I need is when I need rest. They're trying to interact with me. And like you learn all these patterns.

Secure bonds are really what our what our brain wants, which is like, hey, when it's time for building some joy and I want connection, I get connection. And when I'm ready and I look away for rest and I get rest. Like people attune with me, they meet my needs. When I have them, not when it's convenient for mom and dad, but when little one has them. So at the end of the day, you know, our brain wants that security.

Otherwise, what happens is I will run on the the fuel of fear. So if I'm not running on the fuel of glad to be to joy, fear is the alternative for the brain. So instead of scanning for a face to build some joy with, I scan for threats. I scan for, you know, problems and pain. And so I'm either gonna run on joy or basically I'm gonna run on this fear. So when you think about like resilient people later in life.

Those that have had experiences that are anchored in security, they're gonna be able to handle a lot of hard stuff and stay their relational selves. Those of us that have developed dismissive patterns because nobody really met our needs when we had needs, or those of us who've developed distracted patterns, which is, yeah, my my parents interacted with me when it worked for them.

Chris Coursey (46:42.904)
Didn't matter what I was doing, right? It's all about them and what's convenient for them. Or I have patterns where, you know what? I just learned to hide growing up. I, you know, when I I smelled alcohol on my dad's breath, I knew I'm not even, I don't even want connection with them. We learn those patterns. So if you think about it, if you have someone whose experience was anchored in security because their needs were met in timely, predictable ways.

They're gonna have a lot of capacity to handle hard stuff and not get shaken by the hard stuff. But for those of us, and many of us do, myself included, that have had these insecure patterns, we can't handle as much before we get shaken, right? It's not gonna take as much to push us over the edge and we kind of easily lose ourselves relationally. So at the end of the day, you know, people can ask.

What have I learned about my own needs? Are needs a good thing? Or are needs a problem? Right. Like just just thinking about it from that perspective. Are you are you okay with having needs and weaknesses? Is that a good thing? Or does that feel like something I have to hide or something I need to like dismiss or push away? Because at the end of the day, we all have needs, we all have weaknesses. And the goal is that we are tender with weaknesses in ourselves and in other people.

But we live in a world, Jake, as as you well know, where not always good to have needs or weaknesses, right? Because they just tend to cause us problems and we want to hide those things. So ideally, we can be a people who acknowledge, yeah, I do have some needs here. I need to grow some joy in my life. I need to learn some of these relational skills, like joy and rest. And another relational skill is learning when people need a breather.

So what we call skill nine is knowing when to stop. And so think about it. Have you ever interacted with someone and they don't stop? Right. Maybe you get overwhelmed or they keep talking or they're like right in your face and you're like, my goodness. That's a learned skill is knowing when as I'm interacting with you, I learn, like, you know what? Am I overwhelming you? You know.

Chris Coursey (49:02.966)
Maybe we should take a breather. Like I'm a speaker, so I can interact with a group. And there's times I'm interacting with the group, I can see, hey, I think they need a breather. They're looking away, they're getting fidgety. You know, you could like just kind of read the room and go, I think they need a little break. We've been at this for a while. Like that, that's a learned skill. And we feel safe and we're gonna build trust with people who know when to stop. Right.

We're going to feel safe with those people. We're going to like, I like this person. But when people don't know when to stop or they push us and they push us beyond, you know, our limits or what we're comfortable with, we're not gonna feel safe around this person. We're not gonna trust them. We're definitely not gonna let our guard down. So ideally, every couple, every person learns when to stop. Some people, they get started, they can't stop. Some people don't know when to stop with tickling. They don't know when to stop with teasing.

Right? This is a brain skill. This is a relational skill that we learn from people who have the skills.

Jake Kastleman (50:06.85)
Yeah. Right. I like that. It it it actually makes me think of my own history to be to be transparent. of things in my own relationship where I was under the impression that if I just explain to my wife something for a long enough period of time and I give it to her from every angle.

Chris Coursey (50:30.474)
Yeah, I get it.

Jake Kastleman (50:32.147)
Eventually she will agree with me and the problem will be fixed.

Chris Coursey (50:35.886)
Yep, I get it. I totally get it.

Jake Kastleman (50:38.458)
And and then it was actually life changing for me when I learned that it's very very much the opposite. Yeah. where over explaining creates anxiety in the other person and just keeping things very, very simple is actually far better. And I think that that's one of those skills that we just if we grew up in a family where we weren't naturally taught those, our parents didn't know how to do those things, we we didn't do that growing up.

We have to learn it later. And so we we could be doing something that's completely the opposite of helpful and not know. And this creates a a friction in our relationship and conflict and we feel disconnected. And then we then seek out these other ways of trying to find comfort and that pseudo connection. that's so

Chris Coursey (51:26.37)
True. Yeah, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. And that is kind of the beauty of what you experience, of learning these skills later in life. And Jake, every human brain has this relational system. Our colleagues like to call it the relational circuit. And this relational circuit can be on or off. And when it's on.

I'm engaged and I can notice when you need a breather and I'm flexible. When it's off, people that I enjoy feel like enemies. So I love your example because odds are high your relational circuit might have been slipping off. And when our relational circuit starts to slip off, it's harder for me to kind of read the room and to know what's going on. Now, the nice thing with your example, you are teachable. You are open to learning this.

right. Sometimes it's hard for us to to receive feedback. The feedback is really one of the best ways we're going to learn. Now I don't always like the feedback my wife gives me. Right. I don't always appreciate it.

Jake Kastleman (52:33.358)
Yes, I thought you were just every time we're just like, Yes, please give me the criticism. I just revel in it.

Chris Coursey (52:40.308)
I wish. Yeah, there's times where it's like, why did she that hurt? Damn like that. But the reality is, I have to say, that is a way that I've grown a lot in my life, right? Hearing my effect on other people, getting feedback from my wife and others. That's like, hey, okay, I don't always appreciate it.

Jake Kastleman (53:04.312)
Right. Well and I think like you say, when when you grow up carrying so much insecurity, it's it can be very, very difficult to take in that feedback 'cause you already feel inside, I'm not enough, I'm not showing up well enough, people don't like me or they reject me or they won't understand me. And then someone gives you a piece of feedback and it you're already overflowing inside without realizing it totally you have no space. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And right.

Chris Coursey (53:30.606)
Totally.

Jake Kastleman (53:33.72)
But it comes back to the the joy that you're talking about. And it comes back to emotional regulation and knowing how to do that. Yeah. And really being able to be present with all that stuff inside you. Be like, okay, here's this emotion of, you know, this, this, this insecurity or this this belief of this person hates me or they distrust me or they're not here for me or they're not looking out for me. We're against each other. And just really

Becoming aware of that. Yeah. Right? You take a joy approach. I I talk about emotional regulation a lot, as I'm sure you do too. Where do you feel like this is a question? Yeah. When it comes to painful emotion or negative emotion, we often call it Do you find it's what's kind of your approach when it comes to in engaging with that negative emotion deeply versus

Maybe trying to replace it with joyful emotion. Does that make sense?

Chris Coursey (54:32.886)
Yeah, that's a great question, Jake. The way that I approach emotions is your brain wants to learn how do I feel this emotion, how do I share it, and then how do I calm and quiet it. So think about I call it the FSQ sequence. And I haven't come up with a better term for it, but maybe Share quiet. That's and so what that means is I'm just learning, okay, wow, I'm noticing. I'm mad right now, right? I am like really mad. And

Jake Kastleman (54:51.48)
Feel share quiet. Feel share Feel Share Quiet. I like that.

Chris Coursey (55:02.01)
One of the things the brain does not like is when I feel alone in my feelings and my emotions or my pain. So that's where the share step comes in, like, well, I'm really mad. I'm gonna share this with my wife. You won't believe what happened to me today. On the drive home, this guy did this and man, he told me I was number one when he cut you know, all this stuff. I'm mad, right? Yeah, exactly. What a nice guy. Not a nice guy he was. So I've got some feelings about that.

Jake Kastleman (55:21.386)
Sounds like a good thing, Chris. Right?

Chris Coursey (55:30.228)
When I'm sharing it, the share step is in a sense it's somebody who can attune with me. And if she has some some relational skill here, what she's going to be able to do is what we call VCR. Validate, comfort, and repattern. So validate would say, wow, honey, I could see you're really mad. Like, yeah, I could tell. It's really bothered you and upset you. Validation is just saying what you see and what you hear. So she's reflecting back. Wow, you're really mad. Comfort.

Is okay, what do you need while you feel this feeling? Like, okay, you want to go for a walk? Just need me to hear you out, right? And so comfort is like, well, is there anything good here? Like, what do you need right now? So comfort is just somebody who's basically staying present with me, right? After the because validation says, okay, you get me, you see me, you hear me, you understand me. Comfort is all right.

You know what? It's helps having you here. And the repattern part just means what it does is it's changing how your brain handles the emotion and kind of talks to itself. So r repattern is what I would call returning to joy. So now that I've felt the feeling, I've shared it. Someone's with me, she's attuned with me.

Yeah, that wasn't so bad. I've I'm feeling a little calmer here. And that's part of how our brain learns to get back to joy and peace. We have others. Now if she tries to fix it when I just need her to hear me out, that's not gonna go well. Or if she minimizes it, you're just overreacting. Get over it. You're such a baby. Well, that's not gonna help me be able to get back to joy and peace, right? Cause now I don't feel like someone's understanding or seeing or hearing me.

So at the end of the day, when we're upset, it helps to have someone who can see us and hear us, right? And try to understand us, who can just be with us or attune with us. You know, the as as my favorite book would say, we weep with those who weep and we rejoice with those who rejoice. So Yeah, that Romans. Yeah, that's in the Bible. Yeah. So

Jake Kastleman (57:32.94)
Favorite book, Chris.

Jake Kastleman (57:37.614)
That's a good one.

Chris Coursey (57:38.284)
That's a good one. And that's kind of what I'm talking about. We just have someone who can mirror, who can be with me as I feel the feeling. I don't feel alone anymore. Now I'm I'm kind of back to my relational self, right? I'm back to me. And over time, as you get those responses, over time your brain develops pathways back to joy and peace. So when I'm mad.

And my wife maybe isn't available. My brain actually knows what to do with this. And I can still get back to joy and peace because I've had the practice. And now there's pathways, neuropathways developing in my brain. Now I know what to do. And it's just a speed bump instead of a pothole. And so ideally, you know, we learn this first nonverbally, like it as infants would learn this nonverbally when they're upset.

Mom or dad is gonna model it. You can often see it on a mother's face when little ones are upset. She'll see the lip come out. You'll see mom's face is actually like ri showing compassion and kind of sharing it with little ones. So little one feels like, okay, she's with me, right? Or someone's with me here. This isn't so bad. I'm not alone. Someone else is carrying the weight. So there's connection when there's the when the emotions are present. There's connection and it helps me calm down.

So in an ideal world, we get those practices, Jake, and then they become internalized habits that I can use throughout my life when I've had some of that that practice.

Jake Kastleman (59:10.922)
Yes, yes. And when we don't have someone there and it's just us, do you feel like we can effectively emotionally regulate on our own and kind of go through that process with ourselves and our own emotions?

Chris Coursey (59:27.562)
definitely, definitely. And it and it really comes down to in the past have you had people who can hear you? Have you had people who've helped you when you've had the emotion so it's a little more manageable? It basically what does my brain have on file? What does my brain have on file when I'm angry or when I'm afraid or when I'm ashamed or when I'm hopeless?

So the good news is, you know, part of the repattern in VCR is we can do this. You'll see children will do this to themselves. When how do children talk to themselves when they get hurt or injured or upset? So like if you have a child who falls and scrapes their knee, their self-talk's gonna reveal the talk that they have in their environment. So when they fall down, do they say, that really hurt? I scraped my knee. I better go get a band-aid. Or do they say, I'm such an idiot?

That was dumb. Right? So we our self-talk kind of reflects what did I hear growing up when emotions were present? And the good news is we can certainly start to feel and share and calm and quiet our emotions. Some people journal, they're upset about something. It helps them to just get it out. Some people will they just need to do some quieting when they get up.

big emotion present or some people are high energy responders. They just need to go out and go for a run when they have emotions. And as they run, they're able to kind of go through it. So part of the question is what do you need when you get upset and you lose your peace? What helps you get peace, your peace back, or what doesn't help you get your peace back? And so, you know, for me, I'm someone that journaling is really good. I'm a I'm a man of prayer. So I find that spending some time with God

Journaling, I get my peace back pretty quickly. Whereas my wife, she's a verbal processor. She likes to like talk things through. And that's not me. I'm definitely not the person that likes to talk things through, but that's what helps her get her peace back, right? So for her, she just needs if she sits down and gets to talk, whether it's me or a friend, she's gonna get her peace back. But I need a little more like quiet, a little space.

Jake Kastleman (01:01:50.124)
This sounds extremely familiar to me. Late things. I'm like, I could have just said that myself, every every single word. When my wife is like, It just helps. I'm just gonna ramble for a while. I'm just gonna get it out. And I don't need you to say anything. I just you just just listen. Yep. And just just just be here. Yeah.

Chris Coursey (01:02:11.938)
Like I totally relate. I totally relate.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:15.394)
'Cause I sit down and I'll journal and I'll pray or I'll meditate on what I'm feeling. I need that silence and introvert time, right? S sometimes I go extroverted, but yeah. It's often the internal stuff. Yeah.

Chris Coursey (01:02:28.318)
Yeah, I relate. That's exactly how we are. You just you just captured it. That's that is how we relate. Yeah. But it helps to know that, right? It helps to know what hurt what works, what helps, what doesn't.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:42.018)
Yes. Exactly. Chris, love this conversation. I love all the things that we've been able to share with guys and what you've taught today. I think it's gonna help so many men and their families. so I'm gonna share links for your stuff in the show notes. but if people wanna connect with you, where should they go?

Chris Coursey (01:03:00.994)
Yeah, please visit our website, thrive.org. Just thrive today dot org. We're on social media. I have Facebook page, all of that good stuff. But our website has like all of that. Our YouTube page has tons of videos on this stuff. So friends would love to have visit the website. Thank you.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:22.126)
All right. Love Well, thank you so much for coming on, man.

Chris Coursey (01:03:26.008)
Thank you, Jake. Man, I love this. I really enjoyed being with you here. Thank you for having me and talking about these things. Appreciate it.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:33.262)
Thanks, Chris. Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. And if you want to take your sobriety to the next level,

Check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Corn, or my free ebook, The Ten Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome corn addiction. And you can find them at NomorDesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful,

Selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.

Jake Kastleman (01:04:50.966)
Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,

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