163: When Your Son Starts Masturbating | How to Respond Without Shame & Guide Healthy Sexuality With Sam Jolman

What should you do when your son starts masturbating? How do you talk about masturbation without creating shame, fear, secrecy, or confusion—and how can that conversation help him develop a healthier relationship with sexuality, pornography, and his own emotions?

In this episode, I sit down again with therapist and author Sam Jolman to talk about one of the most uncomfortable topics many parents face: masturbation in boys and teenagers. We explore how fathers can respond with greater wisdom and steadiness, why sexual curiosity and compulsive sexual behavior are not the same thing, and how masturbation can sometimes become connected with anxiety, self-soothing, emotional regulation, and pornography use.

This conversation is deeply personal for me because masturbation and pornography became tightly connected with shame, secrecy, anxiety, and escape in my own story. For years, I viewed sexual craving almost entirely as a problem of desire and self-control. What I eventually discovered was that sexual behavior had also become a way of regulating my nervous system, relieving emotional pressure, and finding temporary comfort when I did not know how to soothe myself in healthier ways.

Sam and I talk about why that distinction matters both for parents and for men in porn addiction recovery.

We discuss how boys often discover masturbation before they have any meaningful language for what is happening in their bodies, and how a parent's reaction can shape the way a child relates to sexuality for years. We also explore why immediately labeling sexual curiosity as shameful or dangerous can make honest conversations harder, especially when a boy later encounters pornography or begins struggling with compulsive masturbation.

One of the biggest themes in this episode is that context matters. A teenage boy exploring his body is not necessarily experiencing the same thing as a teenager who has developed a pornography and masturbation ritual he uses every time he feels anxious, rejected, lonely, bored, or overwhelmed. Those situations may look similar from the outside, but the emotional function underneath them can be very different.

That same principle applies to adult men trying to quit porn.

Sometimes what feels like a sexual craving is partly a nervous system looking for relief. Pornography and masturbation can become connected with stress, loneliness, shame, exhaustion, boredom, and emotional avoidance until the brain begins treating sexual stimulation as one of its fastest ways to feel better.

When that happens, recovery requires more than simply saying, “Stop.”

We have to understand what the behavior has been doing for us.

In this episode, Sam and I explore how to move from condemnation toward curiosity without abandoning responsibility. We discuss the importance of learning to recognize the emotional state beneath a craving, building healthier forms of self-soothing, slowing down the nervous system, and helping both boys and adult men understand that sexual energy does not always have to be discharged immediately.

We also talk about the difference between suppression and stewardship. Healthy sexuality is not about learning to hate your body or becoming afraid of sexual desire. It is about developing the maturity to experience desire without automatically being controlled by it, while learning how to direct your energy toward relationships, purpose, exercise, creativity, faith, service, and other meaningful parts of life.

For fathers, this means creating a relationship where sexuality can actually be discussed. Your son needs to know that he can bring questions, confusion, mistakes, and struggles to you without being humiliated. That does not mean anything goes. It means anything can be talked about honestly.

For men in pornography addiction recovery, the same principle applies internally. Instead of only asking, “How do I stop looking at porn?” we can begin asking deeper questions: What am I feeling? What is happening in my nervous system? What does pornography seem to offer me in this moment? What part of me is asking for relief? What healthier response would actually meet the need underneath this craving?

These are the kinds of questions that helped transform my own recovery.

If you are a father trying to understand teenage masturbation, a man struggling with porn and masturbation addiction, or someone who grew up carrying deep sexual shame, I hope this conversation gives you a more thoughtful and grounded way to approach the subject.

The goal is not to become afraid of sexuality.

The goal is to understand it well enough to lead it.

And for those of us recovering from pornography addiction, that often means learning that the deepest question is not simply, “How do I stop wanting porn?” but “What has porn been doing for me, and how can I build a life that meets those needs in healthier, more meaningful ways?”

That is where recovery begins to move beyond avoidance and toward genuine self-leadership, connection, emotional regulation, and a life that increasingly supports sobriety from the inside out.

Connect With Sam Jolman → 

Sam Site: https://samjolman.com

Sam’s Substack: https://samjolman.substack.com

Sam's Book: The Sex Talk You Never Got

Link to Blog Article for this Episode

Visit No More Desire Tools for Recovery for recovery tools and training, the free online community, my free eBook, Workshop, The RAIL Method ™ and more to help you break free from porn.

If you’re tired of trying to quit porn on your own, the No More Desire Academy gives you a structured path to recovery through coaching, brotherhood, practical tools, and step-by-step training. Learn more about the Academy.

If you want deeper, more personalized support, I also offer 1-on-1 porn addiction recovery coaching. We’ll work directly on your patterns, emotional triggers, recovery plan, and long-term growth. Learn more about working 1-on-1 with Jake Kastleman.

My gratitude for the music in this episode (in order of appearance) goes to Ievgen Poltavskyi, Dmitrii Spis, and Aleksey Voroninfrom Pixabay.

Transcript

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Jake Kastleman (00:01.024)
Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.

Jake Kastleman (00:17.102)
Today, I address something many people have a difficult relationship with, something that I also had a difficult relationship with. Masturbation. For some, it feels awkward to discuss, and it's a topic that is loaded with unconscious shame, secrecy, and fear, especially for those of us who grew up in Christian culture. What do you feel when you hear the word masturbation? What messages come up in your head? If you're like me or many of the men that I helped, you grew up hearing masturbation is a sin, and it's something

You hid and never discussed for most of your life. Perhaps this is still the case. It is likely that you are one of many men that discovered it by accident. When it first occurred, you didn't know what was happening. The experience filled you with a concoction of intense emotions: pleasure, arousal, shame, fear. You thought, no one can ever know about this. Because sex wasn't openly discussed in your home, you didn't understand what was happening to your body.

You may have not even known what it was called. You just somehow knew that you shouldn't talk about it with mom and dad. Then, sometime in late elementary or early middle school, a friend told you what it was. Maybe you found out online. Or maybe some guys were joking about it in the locker room and you were shocked when you found out that they knew about it too. Through it all, you developed a strained, shame-filled relationship built in secrecy.

When it comes to masturbation and sexuality. And this followed you into adulthood. What happened to you, my friend, shouldn't have happened. You should have been educated. You should have had a place to discuss these things. You should have known what was happening to your body. Now you may be a father yourself and wonder how to talk with your own sons about porn and masturbation. But your relationship to sexuality hasn't exactly been straightforward or healthy, so you don't know how. In today's episode, Sam Jolman and I

We'll discuss all of this and more, helping you understand your own beliefs surrounding masturbation and sexuality, working to heal them, and giving something far better to your sons than you had. Today's episode is a continuation of last week's discussion on sexuality, teaching your kids about sexuality and how to bring hope and blessing to these things that so many of us grew up feeling secrecy and shame about. This discussion hinges.

Jake Kastleman (02:42.146)
In part upon Sam Jolman's book, The Sex Talk You Never Got, which promotes blessing your sexuality and also utilizing it in a way that fits your values. I highly recommend his book or following him on Substack. You'll find his links in the show notes. Before we dive in, a reminder to download my free ebook, The Ten Tools to Conquer Cravings, or sign up for my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn. These resources are your next step to get sober, and you'll find them.

At nomordesire.com slash tools. All right, let's get started. Today I have Sam Joelman on the show. So excited that you're here, man, for another conversation from our our our previous conversation that we had on how should we talk to our kids about sex, right? How should we have the sex talk? So today we're talking about how should we talk to our kids about masturbation or

Particularly our sons, we really focus on you focus on male sexuality. And a lot of guys listening here are male. So they have a history of this. So we're just diving right into this. A lot of people that hear the word masturbation is like, huh, right? It's like, whoa, that word. So why is that the case? it's one of those topics that will br instantly bring up shame, fear, embarrassment, secrecy, defensiveness, right? I think especially for those raised in

Those of us raised in religious homes, right? So why do you think this particular behavior carries so much emotional weight for people?

Sam Jolman (04:18.803)
man, there's something about this being that boyish bad thing that you're not supposed to do. And I mean, it can go back as far as the church overtly, right? Religious communities overtly saying things like, this will cause blindness. This will physically damage you. It's the unpardonable sin, right? I mean, there are church fathers that have used language around masturbation being worse than rape.

So the church has not had a good relationship with the topic of masturbation as a whole. And so, you know, how much of that has just sort of like carried on through the generations? I think there's also something about, you know, our shaming of the body in general, the pleasures of the body, right? It's easy to equate, you know, in the name of killing the flesh, maiming the body.

It wouldn't be uncommon for as well the church, certain church fathers that have castrated themselves in the name of trying to avoid arousal, what we now would just call arousal, not even lust, right? Just even having feelings in your body around sexuality. So I I think we've just not known what to do with this wild design that God has made us with around sensuality.

And the pleasures of the body. So to start with that, I think, you know, as well, I think we so easily just equate.

Masturbation with lust. now often they can go hand in hand, I suppose pun intended, right?

Jake Kastleman (06:06.446)
I ha that's so funny. I hadn't even thought.

Sam Jolman (06:08.59)
Sorry, I'm so saying it, I was like wait, yeah. right. That's you know that

Jake Kastleman (06:17.464)
We're gonna edit we won't even edit that part out. We're just gonna leave that in.

Sam Jolman (06:19.886)
you know that and and again, I would say, I don't know, I've not polled this, but probably most men who struggle with pornography have a lust, have a pornography and masturbation ritual, right? That those go together. and so I think we equate as this is bad. now, and there are some people that would still say.

Unpartnered sexual experience is bad, is sinful. It's wrong. meaning that sex is made in relationship as a man to your wife, and that's the only place that sexual experience is meant to happen. I don't see that being said in the Bible, and I I don't think it's inherently a sin.

Jake Kastleman (07:12.622)
Can picture the people listening to this episode right now, as soon as you said that, and they're like, Nope, click, right. He doesn't believe masturbation is a sin. Therefore, I'm no longer going to listen to this episode. Right. And and and there's others who would continue listening, right? Think the thing, I'm gonna speak from my own personal standpoint. Masturbation was always associated with deep shame and secrecy and fear for me, right? Always. And so I've always inherently felt like

This is something that takes from me and takes from my life. Right. And so it's hard for me to reconcile that. Like when people will say, well, it it can be a a thing that's healthy. And I'm like, well, it never was for me, right? Nor for any of the guys that I work with. Right. And so maybe you can talk more to what that separation is, because we we really dive into.

the story, the context, the reasons behind it, right? Which you really emphasize versus just the isolated behavior its itself. Yes. There's a massive distinction here. So let's talk about that.

Sam Jolman (08:28.226)
Yes. And and I would say, you know, the context Well I I I would start by saying, you know, touching your body in general is not wrong, I believe. So and I would go back to this. There are there are

You're gonna edit this?

Jake Kastleman (08:57.614)
Probably. Okay, all right.

Sam Jolman (08:59.502)
I'm I'm just trying to think where I wanna start. so I'm I'm getting a little stuck. good.

Jake Kastleman (09:08.246)
This was an experiment for me, Sam, because I I've never done a double episode, but you inspired me to do it. That's right. Okay. We're just we're just going with it. We're just seeing seeing how it goes.

Sam Jolman (09:20.642)
Well, I would I would start by saying this, you know, there is evidence from ultrasounds of there there are recordings through ultrasound video of both babies, little boys and little girls, babies, infants, right? Not even born in their mother's womb, doing what researchers called

Masturbation like behaviors, movements. So in other words, they they have recordings of what l appears to be babies in the womb touching themselves in a masturbation way. Now, I think we would all say there's no way that is driven by lust. Is right, is that sinful for a baby in its mother's womb?

To touch itself in a way that mimics masturbation. I think that's something that you must grapple with. As and again, they also have video of babies in their mother's womb sucking their thumbs. Right? And I would say those to me are closest together, that they near each other. This is what I would call just.

Sensual exploration of their own bodies. You, you, you, you haven't learned how to animate your body yet when you're in your mother's womb. Over time, you can, right? And so what's happening is they're probably passing their thumb over their mouth, and it feels good to suck my thumb. Right? It's self-soothing. It's just sensual. It just feels good. This isn't sexual, right?

Babies in their mother's womb are not sexually awakened. This is purely sensual. Again, it just feels good to touch your genitalia and it's probably comforting. That's what's going on. This is self-soothing behavior. So I think you need to have a category as a person. I think we all need to, with masturbation being potentially self-soothing.

Sam Jolman (11:44.97)
Or self-exploring behavior. It just feels good. There's also evidence of children discovering masturbation. In fact, a lot of these children get brought into neurologists or doctors with fears that they're having seizures, right? That they're having a neurological condition. What's happening is they're having orgasms.

But to their parents, they look like they're having seizures. These are children who have discovered masturbation. Why? Because it just feels good to touch your skin. And they they are exploring their body and they touch their genitalia. And guess what? Because there's eight to 10,000 nerve endings there, it feels good.

Jake Kastleman (12:37.57)
Think this is so important. And I apologize for cutting off, but it's so important from a non-shaming perspective, in that like this inclination, this desire is so inherently normal. When when I was, you know, 12 years old and I began exploring and having this experience, which I had no idea what it was, as many of the men who've you've you've worked with, right, no clue what was going on, right? Unfortunately.

I hadn't been educated by my parents and I totally understand why all that happened. We've, you know, discussed that. But I think if I would have understood even just the neurology and like the biology behind it of what I was experiencing and why it felt so good and why I would be curious about that, right? But then fast forwarding years later, discovering that it was a self-soothing behavior.

For me. Yeah. Right. And that I could actually soothe my emotions and calm my nervous system. Right. Through the things we discussed in the last episode briefly, right? Breath and journaling and connections with others and prayer and exercise and weightlifting and having meaning in my life, having a sense of safety, having a sense of joy, right? All these things that I desperately needed that I didn't feel like I had in a lot of ways. Right.

Yeah. And that masturbation became that way for me. And I would say for some people, it doesn't, right? It doesn't become that way. Other things become that way, or they grow up in a relatively healthy environment. They feel pretty good generally. And they don't really like have these behaviors. They have some healthy behaviors and maybe they overeat sometimes and whatever things like that. But generally they're doing pretty good.

A quick pause for just a couple minutes. There are a lot of men who feel discouraged by some of the recovery programs or therapy services out there. Maybe you are this way as well. Tell me if this sounds familiar to you. You show up to a one-on-one session, someone asks you how your week went. You talk about your problems, maybe you talk about your relapses, and perhaps get a bit of advice or a listening ear, but you don't really feel like you are being given any sound tools to use throughout the week, throughout each day. This is not

Jake Kastleman (15:02.168)
To say that these aren't well-meaning professionals or that they don't do a lot of good for you, but to overcome porn, you need a sound structure. Many of the men in my program who've tried traditional therapy routes or other services find something different in this program. I provide a step-by-step structure that guides you in building habits and tools for your recovery. I provide you with 10 to 15 minute daily practices to build emotional resilience and work through cravings, an entire online course library that I worked on for years.

With short lessons and applied exercises. In the program, you will learn practices derived from CBT, IFS, neuroscience, nutritional psychology, faith philosophy, and I help you apply each teaching to your everyday life through reflections, worksheets, and instructions. It's all about that application, guys. For guys who are looking for a higher level of support, I provide weekly one-on-one coaching to build personalized plans for your specific situation.

I also instruct you in meditation practices in session to work through cravings and emotions and to train yourself to do this so that when they come up, you'll know what to do. Many men find this extremely helpful. In addition to all this, you don't do things alone. You are part of a private online community and meet with a weekly group to connect with other men who are on the same journey. It's a really awesome culture. At No More Desire, you're not just getting sober. You're designing a life that you love. So to learn more about the program,

Go to nomoresire.com slash coaching. All right, back to the show. It it became the focal point. Porn and masturbation became the focal point of my comforting and self-soothing because I was always on high alert, anxious, tense, right? A lot of internal pressure, a lot of perfectionism. And that would help to bring me from overstimulation to under stimulation to numb. Right.

Sam Jolman (16:57.57)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's so powerful. And right. If if only right, you could speak to your younger self, right, who is discovering masturbation and say, both this is normal, it's your body is wired for pleasure, and let's find you a different way to soothe. Right. Right. So that your your n your arousal isn't joined to anxiety.

Right. Because that's to where every time now you're anxious, you're you're driven towards arousal or sexual outlets, right? Rather than romance or the what your sexuality is made for. and I I as well, nobody told me. I read it in a book, and I remember f being terrified that I had injured myself. I didn't know what had happened.

Right? When I reached orgasm.

Jake Kastleman (17:58.85)
Yes. Yeah. Same case for me. What is happening to my body? I whatever's going on shouldn't be happening right now. That's all I know. It feels feels totally weird. What's

Sam Jolman (18:09.07)
Yes. Right. And I I thankfully had an older brother and I asked him. And he was a good, kind presence for me. And again, he's only three years older. And he said, no, you're not broken. That's normal. And I was like, okay, at least I had that soothing, that comfort, right? Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (18:33.134)
I'm not alone and this is I'm not alone. Some weirdo. I'm not like yeah. And I'm not injuring myself. Yeah.

Sam Jolman (18:39.212)
Right. And I've I you know I've heard stories. I had a mother tell me, you know, she remembers she her son ran into the room to, you know, terrified. What did I just do? Right. And she was able to walk him through, like, no, this is normal. This is okay. Right. Again, so comforting to be able to say, It's okay. I've known men.

The the point I'd want to hear is often the way, you know, and there's even research on this, that's children who develop chronic masturbation habits, a lot of times the two things the researchers concluded in this one study, and again it's one study, was it seemed to either come from a a change in parent affection, meaning like,

And this is even for young children, ages like two to four, like where they ha the mother has another baby and isn't as affectionate with, you know, the first child because now the mother is consumed with this little little infant. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (19:50.806)
I've been thinking about my th my three year old son versus my infant that's almost one right now. I'm like, my goodness. Anyway, yes.

Sam Jolman (19:58.668)
Yes. I mean like it could be that, it could be a divorce, it could be right. Is has something shifted the amount of affection this kid is getting. Right. And what they discovered is when affection was restored, for this is for young children, often masturbation stopped.

That amazing. Isn't that amazing?

Jake Kastleman (20:23.502)
It really is. It actually, The Body Keeps the Score. Dr. Vanderkolk, I'm sure you've you've probably read that book. Right. It's an amazing book. He he talks about, I think it was an inpatient facility for kids who'd been severely neglected or abused. Many of them had chronic masturbation habits. And they were young, young, young, young, like, you know, six, seven, eight years old, and they're masturbating. And that was actually a po powerful for me learning that because I was like, again.

This is not an inherently lustful or even a sexual thing like this is these kids are before sexual maturation. They're just trying to soothe their their nerves and what they're going through and the right the trauma they've experienced.

Sam Jolman (21:07.574)
Right. Right. Right. Right. So well said. Right. And and that sense of right, it's it's such a quick access to oxytocin, right? One of the things that's released in orgasm is oxytocin. It's the same chemical released when loved ones touch each other. When you get a hug from somebody who loves you, it's really strongly released in a mother when a mother and an infant are when a

In the infant and the mother when an infant is nursing as well. So I want you to hear, like, I would say for most of the men I walk with, their path into masturbation or a lust porn ritual, lust porn masturbation lit ritual is an anxious body that needs soothing. And I know for me, right?

masturbation became self-soothing. I used to suck my thumb when I was a kid. And then that, you know, my parents weaned me out of that. And I realized at some point in my own counseling work, I think masturbation took over where sucking my thumb thumb stopped. I still needed soothing. And and that became the new soothing.

no, again, is this everybody? No. you know, it can also be just a part of sexual exploration. It can be a, I'm curious about my body. And this feels good. so not everybody gets stuck in a pattern, right? Or it is an outlet for their curiosity.

And their arousal. but I would say, you know, you really need to ask questions around your own self-soothing as a kid. How did you soothe? What was given to you? what was not given to you? the other the other thing these researchers said, I'll just mention this as well. You know, a change in affection within the home from the parents or caregivers. The other thing was early sexualization through sexual abuse.

Sam Jolman (23:33.558)
So, which is just gutting. but there is evidence that if you experience childhood sexual abuse and you are sexualized, it it it's like your body wakes up early to sexuality. And I mean, as literal as and this I just got to me every time I think of this statistic.

The onset of puberty for for people who have been sexually abused is is a on average a year earlier. So girls who have been sexually abused tend to hit mencies and breast development a year earlier, according to one study. And they they also said this was true of boys. and I I didn't read w you know, how did they

Come to understand that, right? But they just said it translates to both sexes. So you know, you you know, to also say it's possible that you experienced a childhood sexual abuse and that sexually awakened you. And now your body, it's not that you are hormonally or relationally matured. It's just that something was energized. And now you're trying to find the sexual outlet for it through masturbation. So

makes sense.

Jake Kastleman (25:03.606)
And I and I think when it comes to relationship, you know, with our our kids, right, when they start discovering their bodies or touching themselves or masturbation, it's like like you're saying, you know, we're we're talking about our own relationship with sexuality as we did in the previous episode, you know, what does that look like? Well, like for me as a dad, I've done a lot of work on coming to peace with those inclinations and sexual desire and all that. And

I I really needed to work for years, needed to work for years on changing my relationship to masturbation. Like I talked about that history, and this is a bit open, but I'll just say it. I for a long time for years, I continued to masturbate, but would remove the fantasizing from it and would remove and would practice removing the shame and the fear from it and just allow it to just be a bodily experience.

And for me, that eventually translated to I'm okay to give this up now. I don't need it as a coping mechanism anymore. Uh-huh. Right. Yep. Because I I had done enough work with emotional mindfulness and regulation and building my life in ways with the meaning I experienced in relationships and decreasing my habits of technology use and easy dopamine hits, right? All these things that I had done where I finally got to a point where I said, you know.

For me, I could keep doing this and it's not something that loads me with shame like it once did, but I don't I don't need it. And I like I like the feeling that I have now of being able to hold that energy and contain that energy and direct it in my life. Right. And that's that I feel like is really powerful and really yeah, really really a a a beautiful experience when you can have that.

Sam Jolman (26:59.768)
Man, I love that journey. I love, you know, you finding a way, you know, to really take it out of the ritual, right, that it had become with lust and pornography and fantasy into just a relationship with your body to then saying, I don't have to do this. And I actually like the energy.

That's maintained by not, or finding other replacements. I love your use of of describing meaning as a form of soothing and comfort as well. and I I think that's, you know.

When you can bring your arousal out of the anxiety story into a story of love, right? Then it does change your relationship with masturbation. and I experienced that as well to say, I and in many ways it was learning how to talk, as you've said so well, to the younger parts of me.

So we don't need to do this. We have other forms of soothing now. Right. That that part that had learned to suck my thumb, then learned to masturbate, right? To say we we can mature in how we get soothing. that was a big key for me.

Jake Kastleman (28:32.344)
Yeah, I love that. And and and you speak in parts work language, right? IFS language you're using there. Mm-hmm. Or inner child work, you could refer to it. Right. But but that yeah, that actually IFS is where it started to be even become a possibility for me because I was able to recognize and appreciate these protector parts of me that would say, We're gonna get our fix through masturbation, right? That would bring up all the craving in me and I could work with.

Sam Jolman (28:40.95)
Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (29:02.37)
those parts of my mind and to no longer demonize or fight them, but to say, here's a part of me that's trying to help me. What's going on for me right now? And investigating what I'm actually needing or feeling under the surface. Yeah. Right.

Sam Jolman (29:20.055)
Yeah, so good.

Jake Kastleman (29:22.166)
That's a big change rather than just the the fighting and why do I you know, in my previous life it was I craved masturbation all day and into the night. And it was just always there and then realizing what that was really about, which was a host of other needs that I felt that were translating into that. Yeah. Right.

Sam Jolman (29:44.116)
I find if you're in a place where you only demonize masturbation and say, well, it's just wrong. And I, and you just get stuck in that guilt pattern. And again, I'm sharing my personal experience. My personal experience is it's very difficult to have the conversation with yourself about it, with your parts, right? To be able to say, like, if it's only, well, that was really bad, and I just need to stop.

I'd say it feels like you get stuck in this behavior modification, white knuckling loop. And rather than being able to think about what is my relationship, what is it function for me? d can I outgrow that? Am I in a place where I have more resources?

Jake Kastleman (30:31.946)
And and I would say, you know, for so many people, it's like, you know, take me back ten years ago, I didn't have the ability to do that. Yes. Right. And the more I was like, well, I should be able to overcome this, the the worse that became. And it just I had to go through a journey. We have to go through journeys to get there, especially for teens, right? Who are going through this. You know, if a parent is watching this, my kid is.

Doing this and I just don't know how to talk to them about it. I don't know what to do, or they're, they're, they're really becoming dependent on this. Maybe they realize they're doing it every day. And my gosh, your sexuality as a teen, this is the first time you've ever experienced this. And it is so powerful. Wars have been fought over these feelings.

Sam Jolman (31:23.0)
Right. So a lot to manage.

Jake Kastleman (31:24.898)
Yeah, it's a

It's not a simple kind of thing like just stop doing it. It is that simple.

Sam Jolman (31:32.194)
Right. Right. Yep. So funny and so true.

Jake Kastleman (31:38.19)
Yes. Well, I always think about, you know, like what would it be? I don't know, Greek mythology or medieval Right. It's like literally wars have been fought over these that that's with grown men. That's how powerful this is. How do you expect your teenager to have a perfect handle on this thing? Right.

Sam Jolman (31:43.714)
Helen of Troy or

Sam Jolman (31:56.716)
Right, and I would say again, as you've said so well, to make space for

their their own relationship to it if you make it bad. Cause I would say I've also known people to where masturbation was a part of their healing. And I know, and I'm not saying that's like that's the script, right? That's the prescription. Masturbate your way out of your problems, right? Like it's not gonna work. That's not so easy. Right. Saying it. But I I would say

At times being able to bless your capacity to soothe yourself. If you can't come to that blessing, it will be hard to have a different relationship here. I've also known couples to where, you know, there there is, as I mentioned in the article, there is sensei focused therapy, which is a part of learning how to slow down your nervous system related to your arousal.

If you've if you've always associated anxiety, right? Because some have said even things like premature ejaculation, right? That I'm so used to anxiety and masturbation and quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, so I don't get caught. Right. Or I'm really anxious and this is my soothing. You've now, you know, wired things together, anxiety and masturbation. So there are techniques, right, around sensate-focused.

Exploration of your body. I've known couples to where, you know, couples that have said, when we got married, we had no idea, because of our purity culture upbringing, that a woman could orgasm. And so I've known women that have described being able to explore my body through masturbation allowed me to know I could I could orgasm.

Jake Kastleman (33:58.166)
Right. That brings a whole whole different view, a whole different angle. Yeah.

Sam Jolman (34:04.598)
Yes. And again, I'm not saying well you have to do that to heal and though from those issues. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying context specific. Again, what's the context? What's the story behind what's happening here? really deeply matters.

Jake Kastleman (34:25.505)
Yes. So let's say that, you know, a parent whether well, I'll just speak in the younger kid years on on this, they they see their son or daughter touching themselves, right? And the immediately inclin immediate inclination is, we have to stop this. How should they not respond to that situation? And how should they respond?

Sam Jolman (34:50.774)
Yeah, again, I would say, you know, however you respond, you know, I'm I'm I'll just start by giving grace to all parents and say, you know, I am banking my whole parenting, as I heard John Eldritch say one time, on the verse, love covers over a multitude of sins. So however you respond, love can cover over that. but you know, ideally that you take a breath.

That you regulate your own body because that can be alarming. What what's going on here? You know, right? Has a sexuality and it's awakened, or they're being curious. Right? Like like they're that so just okay, take a breath. Take a breath. and and then you know.

To be able to bless, isn't it cool how God made your body?

It feels good to touch down there, doesn't it? Wow.

Jake Kastleman (35:57.686)
Yeah. Wow. That's a completely different response, a totally different way to go about it.

Sam Jolman (36:03.886)
Yes, to start by blessing design. That your kid didn't come up with this. God created their body, right? Again, back to those infants in Utero. Like they are in the womb, right? They're just exploring their body. So being able to bless, isn't it cool how God wired your body? Isn't it cool? Yes, God made your body for great pleasure. Sexuality is one of those things. one of my sons said to me once, like in it.

in the bath. So I was giving them bath as they're ringing. It tickles down here.

And I was like, that's a that sounds like a very kid way of explaining it feels good. It it's it's a different feeling. And just normalizing that and like, yeah, God gave you eight to ten thousand nerve endings down there, buddy. Right? so again, if what you're discovering is just you find them,

you know, I would say having a conversation around on on one level, I would, you know, if they're in the act, I would respect their privacy and have a conversation in a little bit because of the vulnerability of their the the privacy of their exploring their own body. So, you know, then I would bring it up with them.

And and talk about like just

Sam Jolman (37:43.406)
You're you're finding out the story of it for them.

Right. Is and letting them narrate to you like, you know, I I think a parent's worst fear, of course, would be my child has been sexualized. And they're acting it out. And I would say, it's good to hold that curiosity, but go slow. You can find that out over time. and then conversations primarily on self-soothing.

What's going on for them? you know, I had a a client and he's given me permission to share this. I share this story in the book, or in the article, sorry. You know, he said, he described how, you know, the way he coped with his anxiety, and the way he was able to soothe himself from all the stress of junior high was he would masturbate when he came home from school.

And he discovered it by accident. He was trying to soothe himself to sleep one night. And he was rubbing his sheets and he discovered masturbation that way. and he didn't know what it was called, but he eventually did. And, you know, he had his father come to his door once, and his father made mention of, you know.

You can't keep masturbat masturbating because we can't keep washing all these sheets.

Jake Kastleman (39:23.19)
That's right. I remember reading this, yeah.

Sam Jolman (39:26.348)
And it was a wounding moment for him because he didn't know his parents knew. And that was the end of the conversation. and again, you know so sad. So sad.

He needed conversations, not just about masturbation, but about his anxiety, about what he was going through, what what was he trying to self-soothe, right?

Jake Kastleman (39:54.412)
I think the trouble is there's so many men who don't know that that's the case, right? They their own relationship to masturbation, they've never even made those discoveries themselves. Yeah. Which is another reason this conversation is very important for them to be able to see that in themselves too and and build a different relationship to it.

Sam Jolman (40:12.302)
Well said. Right. Right. In other words, we it'd be easy to villainize that father. And yet we don't know that father's relationship to his own body, his own masturbation. Right. And you know, there's a high likelihood that he was told it's dirty. Yeah. Right. And he has his own shame that he's acting out of.

Jake Kastleman (40:33.56)
So let's say that father wants to have a healthy conversation and you probably had something else you were saying and I apologize, but let's say he wanted to, or was it even in a place to have a healthy conversation with his son about masturbation? Or in any hypothetical scenario, like what is that conversation kind of look like with a teenager? Right.

Sam Jolman (40:57.516)
Yeah, I think you know

Jake Kastleman (40:59.608)
And we're and we're and we're talking about it. I think we're talking all around it. But maybe there's

Sam Jolman (41:05.088)
A direct way in? Yeah. You know, I think, well, quite frankly, you know, being able to tell your sons about wet dreams. Right. In other words, that you might find that you you have a wet dream, and explain what that is, right? Nocturnal emissions. I would say being able to in other words, you're you won't just orgasm during sex.

Right. It's you might have a dream or a sexual dream, or just so you know you're not scared when you wake up. And what yeah, right? Did I wet the bed? What's going on? Right. to give them a context for that, I think is helpful just in honor of them. Along with that, then I would say, you know, describing it is normal for your body to feel pleasure. It is normal to be curious about how you're.

Jake Kastleman (41:44.726)
Right. Like what happened to me?

Sam Jolman (42:03.734)
your plumbing works. It is normal to to you might find yourself exploring and having an orgasm. Right. And in other words, this wouldn't be your first conversation on sex. Hopefully you've talked about sex and what is an orgasm and what's an erection and how this works and how it partnered sex, right, with your your marriage partner. Right. It feels good and it's not just to make babies. It's also for love and affection and

It's meant to feel like joy and play and you're you've narrated a lot of that. Then I would say it's normal that you've, you know, to be curious about how your plumbing works. And then to invite your son to think about the context, right? To how to separate out lust from masturbation. Right. That like you might find a draw to want to look at sexual material. And

Trying to separate out that and to help them start to be aware of what you wire with your sexuality. Now you could be heavy-handed on that, like you're gonna injure yourself. That would be bad. Right? In other words, your tone matters as much as what you say. But to help them understand, like,

You know, but if you find yourself struggling with this, like this isn't meant to be how we soothe our anxiety, right? It's a powerful thing God made for us. But if you find yourself struggling, you know, even to name, like some guys get stuck using this as their way of soothing. God want, you know, God created other ways for us to soothe ourselves.

Jake Kastleman (43:52.142)
Right. And you may be inclined to do it sometimes and and you may do it, right? It may happen. Yes. And so it's all just practice and training of getting to know yourself and your emotions and other ways to soothe and other ways to regulate and other ways to find meaning in your life, right? Things for you to pursue. So sexual energy libido is the the energy of of creation and pursuit is the way that I refer to it. Right. And I said

Sam Jolman (44:19.063)
So

Jake Kastleman (44:20.256)
If if someone could have told me that as a teenager, maybe it wouldn't have made a difference. Maybe it would be like, what? That doesn't make any sense. But I feel like we should all kind of be taught that. That it's this more general drive rather than just, you want you want an orgasm. Right. Because it's it's so much deeper than that.

Sam Jolman (44:40.802)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (44:44.942)
Powerful stuff, Sam. Again, there's so much more we could talk about here. but we will conclude here. I really appreciate your time, man. I will stick in the show notes connections to your Substack, for people to read your writings. So awesome. Great things you put there, put on there and to your book and all that good stuff. So yeah. Anything else you want to say before we conclude?

Sam Jolman (45:06.488)
Jake, this has been such an honor. I love that you're going after these topics. you're inviting us all into the sex talk. And this is redemptive for me to talk with you as much as we're giving anything to the audience. I've just enjoyed getting to talk with you and explore these topics. So thank you for having me.

Jake Kastleman (45:28.694)
thanks, Sam. You're such a joy to talk to, man. So thanks for coming on. Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners. So thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach.

So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. And if you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Corn, or my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome corn addiction. And you can find them at Nomordesire.com.

As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.

Jake Kastleman (46:49.846)
Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,

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