110: What Your Sexual Fantasies Are Really Trying to Tell You | The Surprising Way to Heal Porn Addiction (with Drew Boa)

What if your sexual fantasies weren’t the enemy, but the key to your healing?

In this powerful episode of the No More Desire Podcast, I sit down with my friend and fellow recovery leader Drew Boa, author of Outgrow Porn, to uncover what your sexual fantasies are really trying to tell you—and how to use them as a surprising pathway to heal porn addiction.

Most men believe that the way to stop porn is more willpower, more discipline, more accountability. But neuroscience and psychology show something radically different: porn addiction is never about porn. It’s about unresolved fear, shame, and grief—what Drew calls the “three great sexualizers.” When these emotions go unprocessed, they surface sexually in the form of specific fantasies, fetishes, and cravings.

Instead of battling your sexuality, it’s time to befriend it. In this episode, Drew and I dive deep into:

• The difference between arousal vs desire—and why separating them is key to porn addiction recovery.
• How to process your sexual fantasies without shame and discover the good desires underneath.
• Why parts work (Internal Family Systems) is one of the most powerful tools for porn recovery.
• The role of embodiment, vulnerability, and spiritual connection in lasting freedom.
• Why self-compassion, not self-hatred, is the real key to outgrowing porn.

I share some of my own raw, personal experiences in this episode, including the way my childhood wounds shaped my arousal template—and how facing them with courage transformed my recovery.

If you’ve ever wondered why your sexual fantasies seem so powerful, or how to move beyond the purge-binge cycle into true healing, this conversation will open your eyes and give you practical tools for your recovery journey.

Listen in and learn how to:

• Decode what your fantasies are really revealing about your story.
• Heal the underlying wounds of fear, shame, and grief.
• Experience freedom not by fighting yourself, but by listening with compassion.

This isn’t just about quitting porn. This is about becoming the man you were created to be—whole, connected, and free.

Head to outgrowporn.com to get Drew Boa's new book Outgrow Porn for 25% off using coupon code NOMOREDESIRE. Free bonus eBook included!

Resources & Links:

• Get Drew’s book: Outgrow Porn
  
  
• Explore Drew’s work: HusbandMaterial.com
  
  
• Join me at No More Desire for more resources on porn addiction recovery.

Transcript

Jake Kastleman (00:01.284)
Drew Boa, massive pleasure to have you here, man. I'm stoked for today's episode. You're a real friend and I believe you're doing amazing work in this world for men having these struggles and I'm just inspired by you, man. So thanks for being here.

Drew Boa (00:15.544)
Thanks, Jake. That means a lot and we've had a lot of fun and let's have some more.

Jake Kastleman (00:19.628)
Yes, just previous to this recording, Drew and I were laughing about all sorts of things. And I was like, we should have just started the episode just from the get-go, you know? Just get going. So your book, at the time that this episode is published, your book, Outgrow Porn, has launched. And when that happens, about a month from now,

Drew Boa (00:44.43)
Woohoo!

Jake Kastleman (00:48.354)
I think you will breathe a sigh of relief. And because it's a massive undertaking and that can't be stated enough. But in my experiences with this book, man, I can say from a personal perspective, it's truly something special. It's truly something unique. And I believe it's going to help a lot of men heal significantly.

Drew Boa (01:15.032)
Thank you.

Jake Kastleman (01:16.601)
Yeah, man.

Drew Boa (01:17.666)
Yeah, and I expect that it will be a strong temptation to self-sabotage when the book comes out. Sometimes, yeah, know, sometimes it's not pain and failure that drives us to porn, it's actually success and when things are going well. And so I'm really aware of that as we're going into this.

Jake Kastleman (01:26.926)
for you. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (01:40.238)
That what you've just said is like, is a really, really big deal. It's something I hear from a lot of men and I have the same thing. such as recent point in my life, I moved to a new neighborhood. got a, you know, a nice house that's beautiful. I'm very, very grateful to be here. And this is vulnerable for me, but I'm going to share it I think it's going to help people, but still a part of me says, don't share this. So.

Drew Boa (02:09.55)
Hmm

Jake Kastleman (02:10.873)
I, for me, when I, when I moved here, I actually had this like very, body, mind kind of visceral reaction of like massive fear and massive shame and this voice inside that told me, are you kidding me? Like you think that you can have this? You think you can move to some nice place and you're to be with all these great people? Like you think you're worthy of that? Are you kidding me right now? Once these people see who you really are, they're going to reject you for sure.

They're going to reject you. And it's only a matter of time. And so another part of me says, hide, isolate, you know, don't put myself out there. Don't get to know people. I'll just do my thing. I'll just kind of like skirt under the surface and stay safe. Right. And this so this is one of the key things I work on with my clients all the time is that the the gift of painful emotion, it doesn't

like a gift often, but I think we often don't go far enough into really understanding painful emotion. We kind of skirt along the surface. We're like, I feel anxious. I feel depressed. I feel cravings. I feel anger, whatever it is. We don't actually dive in and go into it. And if we can take time to mindfully go into it with self love and this openness and curiosity. Oh my gosh, that I love that you're pumping your fist. I love that.

Drew Boa (03:38.883)
Yes.

Jake Kastleman (03:39.992)
that, because I know this resonates with you and that's kind of where I'm turning around to here, but this experience for me of what I would call, because we can often refer to this inner critic, we can hate this inner critic and I easily could turn to that, understandably so, this part of me that's just like, you're nothing, you can't do this, like you're not gonna match up to these people. I got to know this part much more significantly through this experience.

And it sounds so strange, but if we come from the assumption of there are no bad parts, this part of me actually, strangely enough, was trying to make me more resilient. It was trying to make me stronger and it was trying to, essentially it's like in the military. this part I call a challenger. You can also call it like a general. It's like when general's like.

beat down on their new soldiers and are like, you're nothing, you can't do this, right? And they're doing it like breaking them down to build them up. I'm not saying it's a good way to handle it, but if I am able to utilize that painful emotion and dive deep into it, which I did, and I got present with all the fear and all the shame and the grief of past relationships and neighborhoods I had been in in a kid where I didn't feel like I fit in and I didn't connect with people and I didn't feel loved, right?

Drew Boa (05:04.117)
Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (05:04.279)
And I got, and I cried and I like, right. for some minutes, like, can't cry. You got to cry, man. It's powerful. This is powerful experience that can actually be transformative. I got to know that part and I got to say, thank you for trying to bring me to this extremely painful emotion so I could gain a deeper understanding for myself. That's a totally different way of looking at that. Maybe you have something to say on that, but I want, I want to turn that around to this.

Drew Boa (05:08.674)
Mm. Yeah.

Drew Boa (05:33.614)
Mm.

Jake Kastleman (05:34.041)
processing sexual fantasies that you talk about and how difficult and painful and experience that is and complex it is. But if you have more to say about this though, if you'd like.

Drew Boa (05:46.735)
I feel like I'm going to cry, Just the way that you opened up about your processing, moving to a new neighborhood and ultimately finding what was underneath all of that.

Jake Kastleman (05:48.897)
I it. It's great.

Drew Boa (06:02.85)
And underneath all that, sounds like there was a younger part of you that needed to be seen and heard and loved.

Jake Kastleman (06:12.345)
Fear, shame, grief, man. You say the same thing in your book, fear, shame, and grief.

Drew Boa (06:14.572)
Yeah, yeah. So underneath the surface of our sexual fantasies and the types of porn we prefer, we often find stories of those three great sexualizers, fear, shame, and grief or loss. Right. So those experiences, if we don't process them,

Jake Kastleman (06:36.291)
Yeah, you say loss, right? Yeah, yeah.

Drew Boa (06:44.46)
will stay stuck in our bodies and they'll come out one way or another.

oftentimes it comes out sexually. So our fantasies symbolize what we truly need, which is safety for our fear, glory that removes our shame, and connection.

that gives us what we truly need in the middle of grief and loss. Like when we have those things, porn and specific fetishes, like the one that I've experienced lose their power and it's not like a magic formula. However, it is a very real game changing shift that makes the things we're sexually drawn to

less magical and more manageable, less overwhelming. And the intensity is decreased. It's not like the temptations all go away. They just don't have the same control that they used to have.

Jake Kastleman (08:00.11)
This Drew, I love this because what you've just said is on point with what I've personally experienced through this. And we were talking before this episode and you said, we got to record this, we got to record this, right? So I didn't go forward because I wanted to just say this for this episode. So let me tell you about my experience. Now I received your emails and that's where I took this from, but I'm sure you described the same process in the book in much more depth.

But essentially in one of your emails and I highly recommend to people like go to Drew Boas website, husbandmaterial.com, right? And sign up for his newsletter because there's a 21 day email series is extremely powerful. It's extremely helpful. I haven't read all the emails, but the ones that I did, I was just like, man, these are on point. And one of them takes you through a process to, to process, to process, at least in a basic sense, your sexual fantasies and walks you through.

questions to ask yourself and and in there you state very explicitly and very clearly Do this with a therapist or a coach or a close friend as a facilitator? I'm gonna be a hundred percent vulnerable and honest. I Did not do it with anybody but myself and God

Drew Boa (09:16.674)
Love it.

Drew Boa (09:25.634)
And you know, if you're far enough along in recovery to be able to do that, wonderful. We don't want this to be a setup for more sexual temptation or more risk of relapse. The whole point of this is to learn and understand ourselves better so that we can be free. So, you know, I, I don't condemn what you did because I think you're in a place to be able to do that.

Jake Kastleman (09:55.778)
Right. And for everybody, you for those who aren't aware, I'm almost going to sound pompous when I say this. I don't mean it this way, but just more so calling reality to it. Like I have been sober for over a decade. And so being able to approach processing a sexual fantasy from that standpoint, like that's a lot that's I've got some time under my belt. Right. So that was right. There's probably some pride in there, but there's also just kind of a reality for me of like, okay,

I felt capable of diving into it. And so I had this incredible experience. Again, truly something that has, it has been like a launching pad for me to understand sexual arousal much more deeply and understand the parts of me that are involved with it. And like you said, you just said that the intensity

of that sexual arousal, that desire, and you call the difference between desire versus arousal in your book, which I think is awesome. That intensity can actually decrease, and why does it decrease? I was working on this previous to going through that process, and this just deepened it for me so much. So I have so much to thank you in teaching men how to do this. It's truly inspired. So I integrated parts work into

Drew Boa (10:59.118)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (11:21.913)
process and essentially I took myself into what my ultimate sexual fantasy would be and instantly when I say that it's like when you suggested this there's a part of me that's like that moralizer like the part that's like standards and beliefs and and values and it's like no way will we ever do that that is an insane thing to do Drew this guy's crazy why would I do that

It's that part of me is like, this is going to ruin everything that we've worked for over the 10 of the past 10 years. Like that's a crazy thing to do. But I felt called to do it. And I felt, I felt inspired by what you described and explained and kind of the benefits that could come through it. So I took the risk. I took the chance. And as I dove into this experience and, and to again, to be open and vulnerable for me as a, as a teenager, when I was 13 and I started into

it was very much about strippers. That was what it was all about. And I'm sure there's, you could actually probably take me deeper in to understand this more effectively and in a deeper sense, but I walked through that sexual fantasy and what that looked like and all the kind of parts of it. And what I will share is,

I discovered, well, let me break this down first, because there's three parts of me that were involved. And I took time to breathe, it was very intense. The arousal was intense. The pain and the self-judgment and the fear of the experience and the shame about the experience and a part of me being like, ooh, this is exciting. Like, let's indulge in this and go crazy. Like, let's.

And I had to essentially breathe and step back with mindfulness and be this awareness, right? That I believe is this, I believe it is synonymous with this light of God or this truth, this love that's inside of us to step back and be fully aware of these three parts that were, I think there's more parts than that ultimately, but the three parts I was able to distinguish between was one that is,

Jake Kastleman (13:43.406)
what I would call the reformer part of me. That's again, it's about morals, values. It is about essentially breaking things down into systems and categories and everything has a place. And so to this part, sex is dangerous, sex is bad. It threatens to break down my moral code, et cetera. It could lead to a lack of productivity in my life.

And I don't mean sex as a whole, I mean what it became for me, right? And what I was taught ultimately implicitly in my faith, unfortunately, that's kind of a reality for a lot of men is their faith and religion. It, it, it can tend to kind of promote this, this shame and fear around sexuality, which I don't, I don't think that's true through what's meant in a lot of cases. Not really. That's not how it, how it's meant, but that's often what happens. So I noticed that part in the

And as I think about it as that part, and then another part as well that are these two parts that have played big protectors in my life, these managers, don't look at this, don't think about it, it's bad, the judgment surrounding it, this deep fear surrounding it, it's going to destroy us, it's gonna take us over. And there ultimately, if you will, it gets a little complex, but distrusting the other part of me that I would say is this adventurer or this enthusiast.

kind of part of me that's about the excitement and the moment and sensuality and sexuality, right? And like being present with all of that and fully experiencing it, it's excited about all of it. It's like this other guy, this adventurer guy is gonna take us over and he's gonna just like indulge in this experience, it's gonna ruin everything that we've been working for, which is to be a good person and to live a moral life, right? And then as I noticed those parts,

and I was able to just deeply be aware of and understand their good intentions for me. And for lot of people, like, I hate that addict part of me or that part that wants to indulge. I now love that part of me, because I've been working with it over the last year. That part of me, again, what does it want? I just described it. Adventure, enthusiasm, excitement, living in the moment, being present, having fun. This is a really, really good part of me, one that I kept stuffed down.

Jake Kastleman (16:07.129)
for many, many years. But that's what it wants. And one of the reasons why is because I've got this young boy that you're referring to underneath the surface that I refer to as the nurturer part of me, which I kept deeply exiled for a vast majority of my life. It cares about connection. It cares about relationships. It cares about empathy. And it felt in my childhood that it was too much. It's too much. The sensitive feelings were

Overwhelming for people, people didn't want to hear about it. He felt unaccepted and unseen. And so he feels, you know, because I have sexual feelings, I must be a bad person. Like I must, there must be something inherently flawed and wrong with me. And I'm scared of these feelings because that's what they show. They show that I'm not good. And so I was able to just be with and cry with that part of me. And that's the process kind of like you just said.

Self understanding like there's not there's I've the more I discover about this It's not so much more than that in an ultimate sense is understanding you may be able to talk to this a lot more and say more nuance or other details on it, but I Need to understand these parts of me and what I came out with the truth I came out with at the end. This has been a bit long-winded, but I hope it's helpful to people What I came out with at the end was

There's a young boy inside of me that I just described that nurture apart that deeply wanted acceptance and connection. Deeply wanted to feel seen and loved just for who he is. All his flaws, all his awkwardness, all his weirdness, all the ways he doesn't feel like he's enough, just accept it as he is. And what was interesting, what I never perceived before this is that this part of me, and until you do parts work, this can seem strange, but when you do it, you experience it.

This part of me speaking to me, right, internally, not like literally a voice, you hear it, you feel it, saying, I'm sorry that I feel like it's my fault that we became addicted to porn. That was never my intention. I didn't know that was going to happen. And he's saying that as best I understand.

Jake Kastleman (18:25.933)
because the deep insecurities I carried, feeling like I wasn't enough, feeling like I wasn't accepted, all that that he carried caused this other adventurer part of me, if you will, to step up and be like, I've got the solution for you. We're gonna connect with people through a safe way where we can't be rejected and where there's no risks and we'll connect that way and we'll get pure, this acceptance that you need and that you want. That's the porn, right?

Drew Boa (18:55.982)
Is that where strippers came in?

Jake Kastleman (18:59.411)
Yes, because I still have more to discover about this, but it's like someone who I feel embarrassed about some of this and I don't fully understand it yet, but someone who is just going to be there for me and accept me and love me regardless of how I feel. And I've actually talked to one of my clients and we've

Drew Boa (19:17.134)
There it is. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (19:26.989)
We've worked on his sexual fantasies and his are very different than mine. Like in his, he's like a big strong man that's like all the ladies love and he's super desirable, right? For me, it's like, this sounds so weird, but it's like, I'm just like this boy that's just like, I feel awkward and I feel weird. And this woman is just like, I fully accept you exactly as you are, just like in your awkwardness, like you're good. And she just desires and wants to be with me.

Drew Boa (19:54.893)
welcoming you, revealing herself to you.

Jake Kastleman (19:56.537)
Hmm?

That's a good point, Drew. Revealing herself to you. I actually hadn't put that together.

Drew Boa (20:05.472)
Maybe there's an aspect of vulnerability that you long

Jake Kastleman (20:11.467)
Okay. Yeah, I like that. It does. Yeah, I think it's...

Drew Boa (20:13.39)
Does that resonate with you?

Jake Kastleman (20:22.039)
I think that's really making me, it's really making me feel here, man.

I think it's like, want, I want to connect with somebody else and like be fully seen and fully see them to the deepest degree and all the pain and all the joy, like all the insecurities, all the awkwardness, all the gifts and the talents and all of it. And just like, I fully accept you and you fully accept me. And like, we connect on that level where we're like, we're one, right?

Drew Boa (20:38.936)
Yeah.

Drew Boa (20:59.362)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's what God created us for. For that.

Jake Kastleman (21:08.889)
Yeah.

Drew Boa (21:09.912)
So underneath the sexual surface symptoms or whatever the specifics are, we find these deeper desires.

We don't have to shut down.

Jake Kastleman (21:29.081)
so we don't have to shut down.

And so I think that's a struggle for a lot of men that are listening to this podcast right now, because I would imagine that part of them that is, right, again, what I'd call kind of that organizer reform, that very moral values driven part that can be judgmental is like, mm, mm-mm, I gotta control this. Like I gotta control, because it destroys my life and it's destroying my life. So can you speak more to the root?

Drew Boa (21:55.256)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (22:02.253)
and core of what you're saying, which I definitely see, but I think it could be hard to see when you're caught in addiction.

Drew Boa (22:04.014)
Mm-hmm.

All right. So first of all, there is no such thing as porn in general. There is no such thing as normal porn. There are only very particular types of people and activities that we search for or find arousing.

So you can't just deal with porn. You gotta deal with this type of person, older, younger, man, woman, group, one-on-one, all kinds of different scenarios, strippers. For me, my sexual fetish was always girls and women with braces.

Jake Kastleman (22:48.163)
Yeah, and I appreciate you being so vulnerable about that man because that's tough. I think there's a lot of people who would laugh or scoff at that and I think your level of openness about that gives a lot of men kind of permission to be open themselves.

Drew Boa (23:03.01)
Yeah, that's my hope is that first of all, you would feel permission to face these things to be able to talk about them and then to relate to them differently because most of us have a combination of toxic shame, repressed sexuality and a military mindset. It's like

Jake Kastleman (23:28.537)
toxic shame, repressed sexuality and a military mindset. I like that.

Drew Boa (23:33.006)
So having a deep sense of judgment and condemnation for the type of porn or for the specific sexual behaviors I'm trying to get free from. And then when those behaviors come up, we repress them.

and unwittingly give them more power. When we repress sexual thoughts and feelings, they intensify, they get stronger.

Jake Kastleman (23:58.147)
Yeah.

Drew Boa (24:05.728)
As long as we're fighting against them, they have even more control. So trying to control it is a losing battle.

Jake Kastleman (24:05.773)
Yes.

Jake Kastleman (24:15.063)
That's the paradoxical thing that I've come to understand for myself and what I work. This is central to both of our work with, with men. I is, and I put it in a parts work perspective, there's a manager firefighter, polarization, right? They're in conflict inside of you. And for those who don't know firefighters, I've talked about manager, which can be the judgmental controlling, like you've just said, type of party, you that's trying to control the whole thing and make it stop.

Drew Boa (24:31.502)
Yep. Exactly.

Jake Kastleman (24:44.281)
and turn you away from it. And I can't think about this. I've got to make it go away. And then the firefighter is the one that is kind of, it can act as, I shouldn't say it is, it can act as this pleasure seeking or comforting, right? Like I want to see comfort through this or fantasizing, right? Just I'm seeking fantasy in this because it's this escape for me. Those parts.

Drew Boa (25:09.016)
Yeah, escape, avoid, numb.

Jake Kastleman (25:13.565)
Mm-hmm. Those parts act and maybe you can speak more of this but they act an equal and opposite reaction to one another they will they will show up Equally and an opposite reaction one another do you do you that's what I've seen in our work with people

Drew Boa (25:27.202)
Yeah, well this is how our internal conflict and addiction escalates. Because when you clamp down on purging yourself from porn and try to never do it again.

Jake Kastleman (25:35.394)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (25:48.844)
When you do that, this other part of you feels even less safe and eventually will retaliate.

Jake Kastleman (25:58.197)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (26:01.122)
So it's that purging, binging cycle that makes it feel like no matter what I do, no matter what I try, I'll never be free.

Jake Kastleman (26:13.645)
Yep. And this.

Drew Boa (26:14.798)
That's why we need a different approach.

Jake Kastleman (26:18.957)
Yeah, we're going to talk about that different approach. This is actually, I did an episode with Chandler Rogers, which will be out at this point by the time this launches. just as I said before, this amazing guy, Chandler Rogers and what he's doing with the Relay app is fantastic. Very inspiring, very down to earth. we were discussing, I actually literally just lost my train of thought. What were we just talking about? We were talking about...

Drew Boa (26:47.694)
need for a different approach instead of fighting against our sexual feelings, facing them, learning about them, because a lot of times the military mindset of waging war against myself just doesn't work.

Jake Kastleman (27:05.401)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (27:06.422)
And I think Relay is a great tool for getting connected. And as I understand it, they're also giving people ways to try like urge surfing or being with our feelings, which is part of what actually helps.

Jake Kastleman (27:23.833)
So let's actually dive into that, Drew. again, something I work with my clients on frequently, being with the urge. Can you speak more to that and this other approach? Because I think we often see there's two roads. We say it's either to control or to escape, right? Either gotta control the urge or I gotta just give into it. But there's another way. What I would say is the straight and narrow path, the middle way, it's referred to in a lot of faiths and I...

I believe it is sharing that truth of like, there's actually another approach, but can you talk about what this approach takes when it comes specifically to processing our sexual fantasies or understanding how to do that?

Drew Boa (28:11.288)
This is the approach that I fully describe in my book, Outgrow Porn. And it can be summarized as befriending your sexuality instead of battling befriending.

Jake Kastleman (28:28.665)
And that has a powerful, it's both psychological and spiritual. I think it hits truth, right? And it resonates. it's for those who are Christian, which is a vast majority of my audience, that's what Christ did with people who were caught up in sin or sinners, right? He spent his time with them.

Drew Boa (28:48.878)
He came closer.

Drew Boa (28:53.23)
He touched them.

He saw them. He listened to them. He loved them.

Wow, now that is healing. That's a deeper level of freedom than fighting will ever give you.

Jake Kastleman (29:12.951)
And I would say, I've said this before on the podcast, why would we, if that's how Christ treated people, why would we treat any part of ourselves any different?

Drew Boa (29:24.686)
Yeah, and Jesus did have a forceful and assertive side to Him with people who didn't think they were broken.

Jake Kastleman (29:38.681)
Mm-hmm, yes. I love that you bring that up. It's important.

Drew Boa (29:40.739)
Yeah.

Drew Boa (29:44.473)
Right. But with everybody who was feeling shame, with everybody who had a history of prostitution or something that society looked down on, wow, he was so tender. He was so gentle and compassionate. And when we take that approach, these polarized parts feel safer to stop fighting.

start feeling and healing.

And when that happens...

Drew Boa (30:25.07)
Like, it's not that you've won the battle, it's that you've eliminated the need for the battle.

Jake Kastleman (30:32.451)
Feeling and healing. Can you tell people more about that? I often say healing is not a mental process, it's an emotional one. Can you talk more about why that's important?

Drew Boa (30:43.586)
Yeah, I mean, it's not the logical left brain that wants to watch porn. It's that emotional, imaginative right brain. It's connected to our bodies. That's where trauma is stored. And so if you want to really take a whole brain approach, we can't just be trying to think differently or behave differently. We have to engage like

the right brain and the body where our deep feelings and fantasies are actually stored. So our imaginations are good. They can be used for fantasy and they can be used for engaging with your inner child as well. so I see this process of feeling and healing as reclaiming your imagination and blessing

your brain and your body instead of trying to think your way out of it.

Jake Kastleman (31:51.322)
I was just getting started. probably saw my eyebrows raised Drew, because you just kind of brought together a couple of puzzle pieces for me that I've been considering lately, which is what I see is kind of this. Maybe you have more to say on this, but this interconnection between neuroscience and parts work and things. I feel that there's this what I've seen and I probably haven't studied enough about it. I'm sure there's things out there on this, but what I've seen working with clients and working within myself.

is there's kind of a theme typically on which parts polarize with one another. And so it would be like these parts that are like comforting and like peacemaking or like the adventurer and enthusiastic parts are like this like dreamer fantasizing parts, right? These more like creative kind of, you could describe them as more feminine in some ways, but I don't think that quite strikes it.

I've been fascinated by that, the feminine versus masculine polarization and how that breaks down, but I haven't quite figured it out yet. They will polarize with these masculine parts of us, what I would call like the challenger, right? Or like that general part, like you're talking about this militaristic, very militaristic and like that organizer, like moralistic kind of part and like an achieving ambitious part, right? And these parts, and that would be like the left side of the brain, right? Is those masculine.

And then the right side would be like those feminine parts, if you will. This is something I am just, I am like hypothesizing on and just, this is stuff I'm working on in my own time, kind of passion project stuff. But yeah, what do you think about that?

Drew Boa (33:26.656)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I might see it more as like two sides of your unique masculinity or femininity if you're a woman. Like there's the tough side and there's the tender side.

Jake Kastleman (33:33.945)
Hmm. Okay.

Okay, totally. So it's all masculine. Yeah.

Drew Boa (33:41.122)
and the managers tend to be the tough guys like, hey, let's get things done. Let's live a good life and achieve and succeed. And then the firefighters are

What about love? And what about feeling good? And what about play? so they both have something good that we need to reclaim. So a lot of times I think as men we view that more tender side as weak.

Jake Kastleman (33:55.29)
Totally. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jake Kastleman (34:05.581)
Yes.

Jake Kastleman (34:09.699)
Yes.

Drew Boa (34:23.27)
or the problem. Whereas in a full holistic masculinity and in the person of Jesus, we see both tenderness and toughness. And oftentimes our sexuality is much more tender. And when you take that tough approach, it has value and it's only going to take you so far.

Jake Kastleman (34:52.195)
Yeah, this is like this integration. Again, this is something else that I'm continuing to work on and try to understand. But what I've seen for me in my personal journey is my obsession with porn, masturbation, sexual outlets as my way of coping in life. One at one.

One way of describing it is like this imbalance in my internal system, my personality of suppressing different parts of me and other parts being really extreme to fill those gaps that the other suppressed parts aren't filling like this very unhealthy relationship with that hyper masculine part of me. That's that like challenge or that general, is, it can be harsh and it can be critical and in

building a relationship with that part, like I was describing at the beginning of like, okay, this part's trying to like, it's trying to motivate me. It's trying to keep me humble. It's trying to help me grow. It's trying to help me be resilient. That has like really been helping me fill in a gap in my mind and in my life. And it's, it's changing my relationship with my wife fundamentally where I'm stepping up more as a man and like as a leader when I'm needed as a leader and to take ownership and help out everywhere I can and be resilient and be strong.

Cause I just had that part very suppressed my whole life, very scared of it. Like I shouldn't feel that it's angry. It's going to hurt people and helping it come out and be present in my life. I'm kind of talking a lot about parts work here and we're probably focusing less on your specialization, but I just, it's, it's, it's fat. It's fascinating to me. And it's been very, very powerful for me.

Drew Boa (36:43.114)
It is. Part of the reason I wrote Outgrow Porn was to apply parts work to our sexuality. Because there are a lot of books out there on internal family systems and parts work, but not many of them actually go in depth into sexual parts. Part of me that wants to masturbate every day or part of me that

Jake Kastleman (36:53.881)
Great.

Jake Kastleman (37:05.977)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (37:11.854)
is attracted to somebody that I would never want to actually engage sexually, but this fantasy is there, or part of me that's really intrigued by a certain type of porn. We just don't talk about how it all works in that context enough because it's so vulnerable, because there's such a stigma, and yet I think that's where parts work as needed most.

Jake Kastleman (37:35.482)
And do you think, Drew, that there are certain parts of us that are really engaged and involved in our sexuality and other parts that aren't? Do you think we have to engage all parts of us in that experience? Not have to, that we want to for it to be a whole experience? Do you have any views or kind of opinions on that?

Drew Boa (37:59.351)
I we all have so many parts, we'll probably never get to know them all.

Jake Kastleman (38:04.217)
Sure.

Drew Boa (38:05.966)
Usually.

Drew Boa (38:10.89)
sexual fantasies are not about sex.

these firefighters that are trying to help us by escaping from pain. Like they actually were not usually originally sexual, but that's the solution that they found.

Jake Kastleman (38:34.223)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Drew Boa (38:36.308)
And when we can explore and access the non-sexual core of what we're drawn to.

then we just don't need porn or we don't need those old behaviors anymore.

Jake Kastleman (38:55.449)
So let's talk about the difference between arousal versus desire. You talk about this in your book and I think it's really important. Cause some people might say, I just, you know, I feel, it's just, I feel sexual desire. And you know, then I, when I want porn or I want masturbation, like I have needs, you know? So kind of talk about that difference between arousal versus desire. And then maybe we can address what you've come to understand about the mind.

When it comes to sexuality, I have a lot I wanna talk about on that topic, on that subject, but let's talk about arousal versus desire. What's the difference there?

Drew Boa (39:35.554)
Yeah, I learned this from my dear friend, Dr. Doug Carpenter, who specializes in working with male survivors of sexual abuse. And sexual abuse can be so, so confusing because guys will say, well, actually, wanted it. I liked it.

Jake Kastleman (39:40.867)
Hmm?

Jake Kastleman (39:59.224)
Yes. Yeah, that's that can be extremely confusing and very. Yeah.

Drew Boa (40:00.662)
So, right? Same with porn. Well, yeah, it's hurting me. I don't want it, I like it. I want it at some level. How do you make sense of that?

Jake Kastleman (40:15.299)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (40:16.984)
Here is the most clarifying, liberating concept for outgrowing porn. I'm trying to figure out, well, I want it, but I don't want it. Okay, it's arousing.

I feel arousal even though it's not what I desire. So we need to separate those two. Arousal is an automatic reaction that takes place in your body.

Jake Kastleman (40:37.325)
Yes.

Drew Boa (40:48.29)
Desire is the emotional connection you truly long for. So while for me the arousal would be for a woman who just got braces on her teeth, what's underneath that for me? What's the desire? It's for acceptance, connection. Very similar to what you described for a different thing that has been arousing for you, but the core of it at the soul level.

not just at the surface level. It was more about like a heart connection rather than just a physical reaction.

Jake Kastleman (41:30.957)
Because maybe you can talk a little bit more about that and you describe this in detail in your book, but when you went to middle school and there were people that had braces and you kind of picked your mind unconsciously picked this up at that point without you even really realizing it too much later in your life.

Drew Boa (41:47.115)
Yeah.

When I was 13, my family moved from Toronto, Ontario, Canada, to the United States, specifically Texas, like the exact opposite culture. And in Toronto, I was attending a small all boys private school, really starting to feel at home for the first time, because my family moved so much. And we were just getting to know the...

girls from the all girls school. Now remember going out to lunch with these three girls.

And it was the first time I'd ever, ever interacted in that way, as puberty is happening.

Jake Kastleman (42:36.067)
terrifying.

Drew Boa (42:37.368)
terrifying and also electric. I just felt so special too. I remember eating lunch with them. They all had braces on their teeth. And then a month later, I moved to another country. Never saw them again. And so, of course I moved to a place.

Jake Kastleman (42:39.442)
Yes, right. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, yeah

Jake Kastleman (42:52.131)
Yeah.

And I sigh like that because it's, as a kid, mean, that's, might look, a lot of people look back on those experiences, like not a big deal. As a kid, it's devastating, right? Yeah.

Drew Boa (43:07.342)
I lost my whole world. I actually lost who I was. Because in Toronto, I was outgoing. I was very confident in myself. I felt like I belonged. I was getting interest and engagement from girls. I moved to Texas. I felt like an alien. I spent every day just waiting to go home to play video games and look at the pictures of those girls from Canada.

Jake Kastleman (43:11.417)
Mmm.

Drew Boa (43:38.017)
And I sexually imprinted onto those images. My first orgasms all focused on these girls with braces, either from Canada or the girls in Texas who felt completely inaccessible. And where I felt like such a loser. I felt like such a weirdo.

Jake Kastleman (43:42.627)
Wow, yeah.

Jake Kastleman (43:53.837)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (43:59.578)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is something I think a vast majority of the guy, well, should I say a vast majority? A lot of men that I've worked with, that's the way they felt, you know, as kids. That's how I felt as a kid and as a teenager.

Drew Boa (44:10.958)
Yeah. So middle school is already traumatic enough and then you throw in this international move and, and all these changes. My sexual development got stunted when I was 13.

Jake Kastleman (44:26.71)
Okay, yeah.

Drew Boa (44:27.926)
And it did not resume for years and years. Never dated, just stayed online, masturbating to images on social media. That's how my arousal template formed. so there was all this fear, shame and loss. There was the loss of life in Canada and these girls I was just getting to know. There was the shame about

Jake Kastleman (44:39.033)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (44:55.69)
not being able to connect with anyone in Texas. And I remember kids saying, Drew, you're gay. I no girls like you. Why don't you go kill yourself? These are the things that I still remember from seventh and eighth grade.

Jake Kastleman (44:59.555)
Yep.

Drew Boa (45:09.238)
And then the fear, thank you. And just the fear of being so terrified to ever talk to girls. All of that came together.

Jake Kastleman (45:10.179)
So sorry,

Drew Boa (45:25.782)
Of course, of course I fantasized about women with braces on their teeth. How could I not? Given the way that all of that affected me. And yes, there are so many more stories that go back to earlier in life. in therapy session, I discovered something when I was two years old that was already connected to teeth.

Jake Kastleman (45:34.221)
Right, yeah.

Drew Boa (45:54.179)
when my sister used to bite me and I was so afraid of her mouth and then my grandmother planting kisses on my cheek that left a mark and just the way that my face was violated and her lips were unsafe, like all of that.

played a role in me being so obsessed with people's mouths and teeth. There are so many pieces of this. It's like a puzzle. And I don't think we'll ever completely solve the puzzle. But man, when you can see more of that picture, it makes so much sense. And that's when my self-hatred started to melt into self-compassion.

Jake Kastleman (46:27.993)
Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (46:42.553)
This is why, you know, earlier in this episode, I was saying that we don't go far enough with painful emotion. And I actually, teach my clients embodiment practices, right? And I'm sure you teach the same of opening up space in the body for the painful emotion. Cause it, if I try to do it all up here, which is like when my clients first start with me, that's where all their emotion is, is up here in your head, right? And it's just like, I'm just like a head on a body and I don't feel anything down here. It's just all up there.

We become very disconnected from our body and porn plays a big role in that. Yeah, go ahead.

Drew Boa (47:18.2)
So Robert Masters, who came up with the concept of outgrowing porn in his book, To Be a Man, he said that we spend a lot of time in our heads and then when we get too exhausted by that, then we go straight to our penises.

Jake Kastleman (47:38.073)
Totally, that makes perfect sense.

Drew Boa (47:40.268)
And we skip our hearts. We skip our lungs. We skip our gut, you our second brain. There all these other aspects of being an integrated man that we're so out of touch with.

Jake Kastleman (47:43.373)
Yes.

Jake Kastleman (47:47.385)
Mm-hmm.

Jake Kastleman (47:56.634)
Yep. Yes. Yeah. I love that. It's so good because eventually you have to come into your body in some manner. And if you're suppressing it all the time or you're not feeling, you're not there with your body, you're not actually an integrated person, then it will come out in a destructive way. You know, I'd say that's almost guaranteed, right? And so if we can follow that down and actually open up a space, like I was just doing this this morning with some different

Drew Boa (47:57.805)
So embodiment is huge.

Jake Kastleman (48:27.031)
regrets and things that I was feeling and like, I mean, to be open, it's like for all men we kind of struggle with. When we're married, think virtually every guy, unless they grew up in a really healthy home with like an awesome mom and dad, and they automatically learned how to be this amazing parent, there's often this push-pull between work and family and uncertainty of how do I exactly show up as a husband and father and then feeling pulled between the two.

the different responsibilities and then my needs. And I was realizing the past couple of days, I got so involved in work that I was not really paying as close attention to really showing up for my wife the way that I should be. And I had this part of me, again, that challenger part, I feel like showing up like, what are you doing, man? Come on, get it together. You gotta be here for your family. in the past, what I did is I'd like push that off and be like, just be compassionate for yourself and just.

It's okay that, you like you can't be too hard on yourself and kind of the, would be like the firefighter type of reaction to the manager. And there's points to both of those. There's one part of me trying to polarize and be like, be easier on yourself. has a point. There's another part of me be like, you gotta be here as a man for your family. Like show up, man. It's got a point. And so me just stepping back and actually opening up space in my body to feel the pain. was really painful and very uncomfortable, but inviting in and.

Welcoming in that presence being like, okay What is it here to share with me and I came out of that with a lot some massive self-growth and some answers and truth of like Okay, this part has a point like I haven't been as present as I want to be like the man I really want to be and how I want to show up the past couple of days This is calling my awareness back to this center point of my family comes first work comes second, right? The work is there to support my family

And that's something I've continuously had to work on it. I just, think we often, we don't take the time to sit down and just be fully present with, whether it's that anger or that self criticism or shame or fear and follow it down to find love. Like I found love for all these parts of me. Like, look at all these good parts of me. And same thing with cravings and sexual fantasy. Like we don't take the time to actually dive down in and be like, what is...

Jake Kastleman (50:53.037)
What's in this?

Drew Boa (50:53.23)
Yeah, yeah. Let me give everybody a really practical way to respond when you're feeling those cravings, urges, attractions that could lead you into relapse.

You can pause and say, hello, childhood.

There you are. Or as I say with myself, hello, little Drew.

Jake Kastleman (51:19.457)
Hello little Drew. I like that. I like that.

Drew Boa (51:20.834)
Yeah.

mean, so simple, non-threatening.

Drew Boa (51:30.19)
showing up, being present, breathing, being aware, and being curious and compassionate about what's really going on here. Can I give you an example?

Jake Kastleman (51:43.053)
Yes, please.

Drew Boa (51:44.674)
I remember once I was on a phone call with my aunt after we hadn't spoken in a long time and she said, Drew, I'm so hungry for you.

Like, I need you.

Jake Kastleman (51:57.982)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You said, I'm sorry, I missed it. You said this was your wife or is this your aunt? Your aunt said this. I'm so hungry for you. You're like, I don't know how close you are with your aunt or if you took this well.

Drew Boa (52:02.83)
This is my aunt. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's... I'm not wanting this kind of closeness.

Jake Kastleman (52:18.957)
Yeah.

Drew Boa (52:19.99)
I had so much disgust coming up within me. And after that phone call, I felt the need to masturbate.

Jake Kastleman (52:26.649)
Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah.

Drew Boa (52:34.882)
was like, hmm.

Okay. Hello, little Drew.

going on for you? What's coming up right now? And in my imagination...

He said, my body was not my own.

Drew Boa (52:56.362)
It was the property of older women in my family, aunt, grandmother, who would.

grab my hand, even when I tried to let go, they would ensnare me in hugs I didn't like. As I said, planting a kiss on my cheek, leaving a big, big red mark.

Drew Boa (53:23.51)
And this part of me that wants to masturbate is saying, I want my body to be mine. I want to choose what I do with it. I don't want to feel consumed emotionally or physically by an older woman.

And once that came to the surface, wow, that makes so much sense.

Jake Kastleman (53:48.601)
Yeah.

Drew Boa (53:49.495)
Like that desire for autonomy and for safety is good. And then that empowers me as an adult to say, little Drew, you are absolutely right.

Jake Kastleman (53:58.34)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (54:06.232)
Your body was not your own. And now if you give into this urge,

you're actually allowing your aunt to continue to control you all these years later.

Jake Kastleman (54:22.457)
I love that you say you're sorry, go ahead.

Drew Boa (54:26.656)
I what he wanted was freedom.

And now that, now that I've discovered what was underneath the urge, I can give him even more freedom.

Jake Kastleman (54:39.619)
Yeah.

And I think one of the things that you said I love stuck out to me is your desire for security and autonomy, I think you said, is good. This is so crucial. This is the answer I come back to again and again and again in emotional mindfulness and with parts work digging down. If you dig down far enough, you're gonna find the good intention. You're gonna find the good desire. It's always there. And I think that that is really in so many ways the core of love as best I've come to understand it.

It's to find the truth. And the truth is, underneath everything that you feel and everything you experience, all your actions, all your thoughts, et cetera, there's a desire to do the right thing. There is a desire for something good.

Drew Boa (55:29.272)
Yeah, we might say it like this. Beneath every behavior is a feeling. Beneath every feeling is a need.

Drew Boa (55:40.536)
when we deal with the needs, we address the cause, not the symptoms.

Jake Kastleman (55:46.361)
I like that.

Drew Boa (55:47.074)
That's from Ashley Warner. She's talking about parenting in that quote. It also applies to reparenting ourselves.

Jake Kastleman (55:54.71)
Mm-hmm. And this one of the things I thought about too, Drew is in some ways how inevitable this is for us to carry shame or trauma to whatever degree into our lives, where I almost feel like when you look at it from a spiritual perspective, I believe that it's set up that way. We're going to experience hurt. We're gonna experience fear, shame, grief. We're gonna experience all these things because we

It actually if we utilize that for good, it's going to deepen understanding. It's going to deepen compassion. It's going to bring us to a place of love. But it but those same emotions all stand to they can make us bitter and make us tortured and make us, you know, filled with feelings of self doubt and run our lives. But when we're able to fully face those things and we need to know how to do that.

but to fully face them and dive into them and understand them at the deepest level, then we come out as a deeper, more loving, better person.

Drew Boa (57:02.968)
And that's the gift of this work. It has ripple effects that are so much bigger than just behavior change.

Jake Kastleman (57:10.841)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (57:11.79)
We're becoming mature.

Jake Kastleman (57:15.587)
Yeah, yeah. Outgrow porn, as you say, right? Outgrow it. Yeah. So in your book, Drew, you say porn loses much of its power when we find real safety with real people in real life. Very good. For many men that I've worked with, that real human connection can feel scary, can feel unknown.

They can feel blocked from even being able to have it in the first place. What does that look like? What does it feel like? Or they don't even know that they're not connecting. Or it can feel stale actually in comparison to the extremely arousing intense experience of porn.

What are your thoughts about that?

Drew Boa (58:04.226)
If you want to experience the kind of connection that I'm talking about, you need to be vulnerable. And being vulnerable means more than just being transparent.

Jake Kastleman (58:14.495)
Mm, mm, I like that.

Drew Boa (58:15.438)
Think about it this way. If you go to the zoo and you see an exhibit with a scary animal, what would be your scary animal in a zoo?

Jake Kastleman (58:25.517)
I mean, I guess a lion. Yeah.

Drew Boa (58:26.646)
A lion, right? So you're at the lion exhibit, you're looking at the lion through a thick pane of glass. You're visible, but you're not vulnerable.

The glass is transparent, but it's still protecting you. And I think for a lot of us, we're used to being part of these recovery groups or friendships where we're being transparent with each other. Maybe we're confessing every time that we sexually act out, but that doesn't mean it's vulnerable. That is still often a protected way to live.

Jake Kastleman (59:00.663)
Yeah.

Drew Boa (59:08.021)
yeah, I masturbated. Okay. That doesn't actually tell me very much.

To be vulnerable is when you remove the glass.

Now you're in the exhibit with the lion. Okay, you can just feel the difference in your body. You know, of what that would be like. So the Latin word vulnus means wound. So to be vulnerable is to be woundable.

Jake Kastleman (59:30.583)
that's good imagery.

Jake Kastleman (59:40.505)
Wow.

Drew Boa (59:41.974)
means I'm giving this person the opportunity to hurt me or heal me.

If we're not woundable, we're not healable.

Jake Kastleman (59:50.915)
Yeah.

Drew Boa (59:56.066)
You know?

And so it's a huge deal. And that's part of why it's so powerful to open up about the particular types of porn we prefer or specific sexual fantasies or, you know, the stories of childhood trauma, like the one you told at the beginning of this episode. Like that gets us into the arena. And especially if it's with people who really know you, who love you, who can hold a safe space.

Jake Kastleman (59:58.874)
That's a big deal, Drew,

Drew Boa (01:00:28.046)
for whatever's going on within you. Man, now, now there's an opportunity for the real version of what we've been seeking symbolically through porn.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:41.601)
And I imagine a number of people think, okay, well, so once I reach all this self understanding and stuff, then what? Because there's gotta be, I gotta fix something, right? Like I gotta take action or something, right?

Drew Boa (01:00:54.25)
Revealing is not the same as healing. You can understand all your issues inside and out and still feel the same in your body. This is not a solo sport. We need community and we need it to be experiential. We need it to engage our whole brain, our whole body. Not that that's some kind of guarantee, but it's just so much more powerful than what many of us have been doing.

Jake Kastleman (01:01:24.793)
And you actually have a fantastic opportunity. By the time this launches, it'll be a little late. I don't know if there will be any spots available, but you do have the retreat at beginning of September. If there are spots available by the time people are listening to this, do you want to talk a little bit about what you guys do there?

Drew Boa (01:01:32.494)
Yeah, it'll be too late.

Drew Boa (01:01:43.289)
Yeah, we are doing one in September, we're doing one in April. We also do these smaller healing weekends. And this is an opportunity to have the one thing we can't do on Zoom, which is embodiment.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:01.913)
Totally.

Drew Boa (01:02:03.298)
Like a real long hug. Watching the sunrise together.

releasing Trump.

healing tears and experiencing the presence of Jesus in such a tangible, visceral way. That's what these experiences are about. My rule is that anything we do at these retreats has to be impossible online.

Jake Kastleman (01:02:33.869)
I like that.

Drew Boa (01:02:33.92)
It's not coming to see a bunch of speakers. It's like, no, let's, let's do some work. And there are some great men's experiential weekends out there. And, and I found that they can be milestones. Like you can have an experience there that, that changes a lot. And also we need habits to make the healing stick. So, it's, it's not just like, you know, come and then everything's different. like, no, we're, we're tasting.

what life can be like, and then we go home and then we take it with us.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:10.477)
Yeah, it's awesome, Drew. It's awesome. Well, maybe you could, I kind of want to wrap up with the question. We'll see where this goes, but what has been one of the most profound things for you in your own recovery journey and helping you outgrow porn?

Drew Boa (01:03:30.06)
Hmm, we've talked about a few of them. Meeting little Drew.

Jake Kastleman (01:03:33.219)
We sure have.

Drew Boa (01:03:38.37)
has changed everything.

Seeing the stories behind my sexual fantasies has been huge. Telling other people my darkest secrets I've never told anyone and then receiving nothing but love and acceptance and embrace.

has been huge.

Drew Boa (01:04:11.714)
going to some of these weekends and screaming and sobbing and allowing all of this energy to have a place to go other than my penis has been huge. Ongoing support so that I don't become complacent. think it's very common.

Jake Kastleman (01:04:28.343)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Boa (01:04:39.608)
for guys to get to a point where they feel like, hey, I'm doing great. Now I can just coast or drift. Man, that's a recipe for relapse. And I've been there even after a year of freedom from porn. Went right back to it in 2014.

Drew Boa (01:05:06.23)
and felt like I was all the way back at the beginning. Like we need to maintain our momentum. Not just gain momentum, but maintain it. And growth is a lot harder than maintenance. To first get traction toward lasting freedom is extremely difficult. Maintaining freedom is a lot easier, but we neglect it.

You think, I'm good now, so we do nothing. It's like, no, like, keep going. There's always more. And that feels perhaps discouraging for some people, like, you mean I'll never get over this? Like, no, it's like, there's more healing available. There's freedom that you didn't even know you could have yet. And I love how you referenced that, Jake, how you've had over 10 years of sobriety, you've done a lot of work. And this new piece of like,

Jake Kastleman (01:05:36.867)
Yep.

Drew Boa (01:06:03.48)
starting to face your fantasies took you even deeper. So what a gift that we get to keep going. And that's why at the very beginning of this, acknowledged this strong temptation to self-sabotage as I'm coming out with this book. It's like, man, I'm not immune or exempt from sexual temptation and from all these things in my life.

I'm also not who I used to be. I'm not where I was. And like, this is the adventure of a lifetime.

Jake Kastleman (01:06:45.899)
It is, and I think you actually, when I first started this journey, it was kind of that mentality of like, okay, so when can I finally finish up with all this like growth stuff and like getting to know myself stuff, I'll get over all my traumas stuff and get back to my normal life. Like once that's done, then I can quit the porn thing and then everything will be fixed.

And what you come to learn, what it took me five years of relapses to finally learn and just trying so hard is like, this is the rest of my life. Which can sound, like you say, very discouraging, but it's, that's not actually how it is.

Drew Boa (01:07:32.083)
dealing with a surface level sexual issue like porn is a trailhead. It's an invitation, an opportunity. You start going on that trail. Eventually you'll, you'll see like, maybe there's a lot more out there than I thought. And that's, that's not a threat. Like that's a fantastic story.

that God is writing in your life.

Jake Kastleman (01:08:05.433)
It's really exciting. I think I've come to love this work. It excites me. The deepening of self-understanding and growing in my recovery. Recovery just becomes a way of life, you know?

Drew Boa (01:08:19.032)
Yeah. And after you finally understand the goodness and beauty of your deeper desires, it's not like sexual recovery is swimming upstream against a strong current. It's like whitewater rafting.

Like, yeah, it's hard, but it's a different kind of challenge where you're flowing with your sexuality and your body and how God made you. like, that's so discouraging when you just feel like you're constantly swimming upstream, like, my desires, I'm just constantly fighting against them rather than being with them and then going where we were.

designed to go, which is into acceptance, affirmation, adventure, love, safety, relationship, glory, honor, coming home, like healthy touch, redemption, like all these good things. And then our sexual symptoms were just the ticket into that amazing theme park where we're like, actually,

starting to take risks and experience those things for real.

Jake Kastleman (01:09:42.457)
Yeah, very well said, Drew. Couldn't have said it better myself, man. Well, good, good. Cause you still have another month till your book launches. So I think all that fire will serve you well. That's right, man. Well, yeah, man. And again, just want to reiterate for everybody listening, Outgrow Porn, it's an extremely powerful work. Drew has...

Drew Boa (01:09:45.134)
You're me fired up. I'm like, let's do this.

Drew Boa (01:09:56.399)
Yeah, I'm gonna need it. Thank you so much for having me.

Jake Kastleman (01:10:10.745)
poured his soul, his heart, his mind, his blood, sweat and tears into this book. And it truly is a powerful work that I believe if you're struggling with pornography addiction, seek it out, buy it, listen to it. I assume there will be an audio version. Is that right? 2026, okay. I shouldn't have spoken too soon. 2026, there will be an audio version, but by the book, it's a powerful one. So thanks for what you're doing, Drew.

Drew Boa (01:10:28.142)
2026.

Jake Kastleman (01:10:39.821)
a really big deal and if people want to find this book or learn more about you or your retreats, the Husband Material Academy, where can they go?

Drew Boa (01:10:48.696)
Go to outgrowporn.com to buy the book directly from me at the highest quality and the lowest price. And you can go to husbandmaterial.com for all of our free resources and courses and the events that we're doing. We do a free conference every six months as well. yeah, I don't believe that anyone should be prevented from

from getting high quality help with this. So Jake, thank you for what you're doing and the way that you're playing a huge role in this amazing story and inviting me to speak.

Jake Kastleman (01:11:30.691)
Thanks, Drew. I appreciate that, It's great to have you on.

Drew Boa (01:11:35.15)
Thanks.