116: How to Support a Partner Struggling with Addiction (Without Losing Yourself to Betrayal Trauma)

When you love someone who’s caught in addiction—whether it’s porn, alcohol, or anything else that numbs pain—the chaos doesn’t just stay with them. It spills into your relationship, your emotions, and even your identity.

In this episode of The No More Desire Podcast, I sit down with Holly Thornton, author of The Hardest Help, who’s lived through the agony of betrayal trauma, manipulation, and loss—and emerged with compassion, clarity, and tools that actually work.

Together, we explore what most recovery conversations miss: how addiction and betrayal trauma intertwine, and how both partners can begin to heal through boundaries, empathy, and truth.

If you’re a man working to overcome porn addiction, this episode will give you a powerful glimpse into what your spouse experiences on the other side of your addiction—and how understanding her pain can transform your recovery.

And if you’re the partner of someone battling addiction, you’ll learn how to support your loved one without losing yourself, why “rock bottom” is a dangerous myth, and what practical, compassion-based methods like the CRAFT approach can do to restore hope.

In This Episode, We Explore:

• How betrayal trauma affects the brain—and why partners of addicts often feel anxious, confused, or “crazy.”
• The myth of rock bottom and why waiting for collapse keeps you trapped in addiction.
• Emotional regulation tools rooted in neuroscience to calm the nervous system and build resilience.
• The psychology of boundaries—how to protect yourself and rebuild trust without punishing or controlling your partner.
• Why curiosity heals more than confrontation, and how to communicate in a way that promotes safety, not shame.
• How small daily actions rewire the addicted brain through neuroplasticity and consistency.
• Spiritual and psychological integration—how empathy, compassion, and ownership reconnect you to your True Self.

This conversation isn’t about blame—it’s about healing through understanding.

It’s about becoming a man who doesn’t just say “I’m sorry,” but lives as someone who’s safe to love.

Because real recovery isn’t just about quitting porn—it’s about becoming whole, grounded, and emotionally present enough to lead yourself and your relationship with integrity.

Link to Blog Article for this Episode

If you’re ready to build the mindset and lifestyle that lead to long-term freedom from porn addiction, visit NoMoreDesire.com and apply for my 1-on-1 Porn Addiction Recovery Coaching Program. You’ll gain the structured tools, accountability, and training you need to transform not only your habits—but your heart.

Grab my Free eBook and Free Workshop for more strategies to overcome porn addiction, rewire your brain, and rebuild your life

Follow Holly at thehardesthelp.com
or on Instagram @holly_jthorton

Transcript

Jake Kastleman (00:03.178)
A lot of spouses go through this battle of, okay, I need to control you or like make different decisions so that you stop suffering and I don't want to watch you suffer anymore and it's causing me suffering too. This easygoing guy was not easygoing anymore. felt like he was always on edge and unhappy. And I looked to myself like, okay, what am I doing wrong? I must be.

causing this. There's something that I'm not doing or that I'm doing wrong that's making him upset that is the root of all of this. I just didn't connect the dots. It's so easy to dismiss the red flags when they're faint. I'd say they're like pink, right? They're not bright red. So that's I was going to say. They're pink flags. They're pink and you just sort of like shove it under the rug and whatever they tell you, you want to believe to just accept what he says, you know, because there's some gaslighting and manipulation and I don't think it was intentional. It's more like a defense mechanism.

that he had. As these flags start getting brighter and now they're red, of course I'm going to look to him to dismiss it because that's been the pattern.

Jake Kastleman (01:16.458)
If you've ever loved someone who's battling addiction, you know how agonizing it can be. You question yourself, am I crazy? Is this somehow my fault? You try to control, to fix, to manage the chaos, but nothing seems to work. And over time, you start to lose yourself in the process. For the men listening who are caught in the grip of pornography addiction, I want you to hear this too.

This is what it feels like on the other side. The confusion, the betrayal, the loneliness, and understanding that perspective, truly seeing through your partner's eyes, can be one of the most powerful catalysts for your recovery and for rebuilding trust. Today's guest knows this reality on the deepest possible level because she experienced it firsthand. Holly Thornton is the author of The Hardest Help.

featured on NBC News and Writers Life Magazine. Holly walked through every stage of the journey of a betrayed spouse, denial, manipulation, betrayal, ICU visits, and ultimately unimaginable loss. But she didn't stop there. Holly now speaks across the country, offering tools and proven methods rooted in the craft approach, empowering loved ones to actually make a difference

without losing themselves. In this episode, Holly and I are going deep, not just into her story, but into what really works when a partner is caught in addiction. You'll learn how to recognize red flags early and trust your gut instead of doubting your sanity, why rock bottom is a myth and what effective compassionate intervention actually looks like, how to set boundaries that protect you without punishing your partner.

and how addicts themselves can begin to understand their spouse's experience and take small, powerful steps toward healing the relationship. So whether you're a spouse who feels broken and betrayed or someone struggling with addiction who wants to heal, grow and develop empathy for their spouse, this conversation will give you a new lens, new language and new hope. Before we dive in, a reminder to follow this podcast, hit the notification button and shoot me a rating.

Jake Kastleman (03:42.242)
So we can uptick that algorithm and grow the No More Desires show together. With that, we'll dive in to my powerful conversation with Holly Thornton.

Jake Kastleman (03:56.312)
Hey Holly, welcome to the show. It's awesome to have you. Hi, thank you. Yeah, this is great. Holly, you have quite an amazing story and also this background with a challenge of being a spouse who dealt with a husband that was in addiction. It's a different addiction than what we typically talk about on this show, right? My audience is all pornography addiction, but...

It is so much the same in so many ways. I once dealt with alcoholism myself. And so I know how similar that was in the dynamics that I went through in my own life. So I want to start with this, so much this episode is speaking to those who are in addiction, but so much their spouses who are going through the pain of watching their spouse go through that and how to be there for them and how to communicate with them, et cetera. So I'm excited for what we're going to talk about and how it's going to help people. So thank you for being here.

Thank you. Can you share kind of about your story? Your husband was struggling with alcoholism. When did it become apparent to you, this is really an issue, this isn't just something that he's kind of going through, this has become a major problem for our family? What did that look like? Sure. So, you know, at one point in this journey, he actually came to me and said, okay, I think I do have a problem.

And I just trusted him fully, completely. So I said, okay, I wanted to be supportive. And I was very naive and uneducated on this topic and this issue. So I didn't do a lot of digging. I just said, okay, what do you need? And he said, well, I've already looked into it. There's a detox center near the house and I'll go there for as long as I need, whatever they recommend.

I'll come home and I think that that's going to be the solution. Right? So I said, okay, great. Yeah, it'll be one done, it'll be over and then I can move on with rest of my life. Exactly. And that's what I believed. and I didn't really know at that point how deep he was into his addiction. just, all I knew is that, okay, I've seen some evidence that there's an issue.

Jake Kastleman (06:21.314)
And he's telling me there's an issue. This is what he says the solution is. So he does. He goes to detox. He comes home three days later. And we went out to dinner that evening. I think it was a Friday night. So we as a family went out to dinner. And he looked at the waitress and said, can I have a beer? And so my heart sank in that moment. And I thought, I don't know much about alcoholism.

Like I know nothing, but what I do know is that this just doesn't feel right. I don't think this is normal. I don't think you're supposed to come home from detox and the same day order a beer. That just doesn't sit well with me. And it did hit me at that moment that, okay, I think we are dealing with something much bigger and something that doesn't just involve him as far as the solution, because clearly he doesn't have the answers.

So that would mean that I would need to be involved, but I just don't know how or why. Like I knew nothing beyond that except for how I felt in that moment. And that that crossed my mind and that's it. That's all I knew. It's difficult to be in that position and to wonder how do I show up for them? How do I help?

a lot of spouses go through this battle of, okay, I need to control you or like make you make different decisions so that you stop suffering and I don't want to watch you suffer anymore and it's causing me suffering too. And so how did that begin to kind of escalate for you guys? And yeah, what was that? Like did that...

was that several years that you guys went through this of his alcoholism continuing to spiral or progress and then impacting you and your family. How many kids do you actually have at this point? Sure, yes. So we had three, three kids. Yeah, okay. So there are yeah. Yeah, and so I guess I just wanna say, in the beginning, in the beginning of the relationship, I didn't grow up around alcohol at all. My parents didn't drink.

Jake Kastleman (08:40.69)
the people that they associated with, my family members, no one drank. And so I didn't know what normal was. I didn't know if a glass of wine occasionally was normal or vodka every night. You know, as long as you act right and you're appropriate and you are there for your family. I just didn't know and I didn't judge and I didn't question it.

But he was, of course, in the beginning, a great guy and we had a good relationship and he was a very hands-on dad. He was a good dad and he provided for our family. He went to work, he came home, he made dinner, he did all of the things. I would say maybe four or five years in is when I started to see some behavioral changes. would say, and this is why,

pornography addiction, gambling addiction, they all, you know, it's a different vice, right? It's a different addiction, but a lot of the behaviors are the same. And so it was, I started noticing that alcohol was a priority, that if he didn't have it, if he ran out, if the store closed before he could go get more and stock up, that I'd noticed to change in attitude, that he would become irritable.

And eventually it was like a total personality shift. I felt like he was nitpicking at me. Like he was in a bad mood all the time. This easygoing guy was not easygoing anymore. Felt like he was always on edge and unhappy. And I looked to myself like, okay, what am I doing wrong? I must be causing this. There's something that I'm not doing or that I'm doing wrong that's making him upset that is

the root of all of this. I just didn't connect the dots. And it really, really didn't hit me that alcohol was the problem until he had some health issues come up. So the first thing that happened was I was at work, he called me and he said, I'm not feeling well and I have this rash on my abdomen, this strange kind of like prickly rash. Is that Candida infection? It was his kidneys shutting down. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Jake Kastleman (11:04.462)
So he went to the doctor and the doctor got him a bed at the local hospital. The doctor called me and said, hey, this is alcohol related. And he was in the hospital for a few days at that point. And actually at this point I'm pregnant with my third. And so I have a lot of my plate. I think it was like eight months pregnant at point. And he told me that

You know, really wasn't bedilled. Maybe he drank too much and that caused like system overload and his kidneys didn't process it well and he just needed to go get hydrated. And when you go to the hospital, when you're a patient in the hospital, they are treating the acute issues. They're really not there to, you know, bring the social worker in and dive into your issues and set up a plan when you get home.

They just want to patch you up, band-aid you, and send you on home. And that's what they did. And so being that this was really the first incident, I took him at his word that, okay, we're going to get through this, things are going to be better, you're going to be patched up, you're going to go home. Of course, on some level that didn't sit well with me, but look, I'm eight months pregnant, this is what he's telling me. Everything he's told me in the past has been the truth.

And so that was definitely a brighter red flag though, because I think the red flags, they start out really faint. And you dismiss them. It's so easy to dismiss the red flags when they're faint. I'd say they're like pink, right? They're not bright red. That's I was gonna say. They're pink flags. They're pink and you just sort of like shove it under the rug and whatever they tell you, you want to believe. And so you believe it and you move on and you continue to see more and they become brighter.

But we kind of become desensitized, I think. And also, I don't think this is intentional, but I feel like the addict goes through sort of like, it's like they're grooming you. That's how I felt, like I'm being groomed. To just accept what he says, like, you know, because there's some gaslighting and manipulation and I don't think it was intentional. It's more like,

Jake Kastleman (13:25.17)
a defense mechanism that he had, right, to explain this away and to tell me that, you know, I'm imagining things or blowing things out of proportion. So as these flags start getting brighter and now they're red, of course I'm going to look to him to dismiss it because that's been the pattern. And so that's what I did. And it really wasn't until, I think it was several years later.

We went on beach trip, we had a great time, we came home. And we're just sort of at this point in the routine of I'm getting used to his new personality. Sometimes he's the old Steve and sometimes he's irritable Steve, but that's just sort of what I've become accustomed to. And I'm just sort of surviving. I'm in survival mode, right? And I'm hoping things will get better. And he becomes ill. And I thought that he had the flu.

He was at home in bed for 16 hours, sleeping for 16 hours a day for about a week. Stopped eating, stopped drinking. I went in one morning and I noticed that he was jaundice. And so he went to the hospital and they of course ran all sorts of tests and they said not only are his kidneys shutting down again, but his liver is shutting down. He's an acute liver failure.

And they didn't give me much information beyond that. They were working on Steve's. He was obviously not in a good place physically with his health. And so I had to go home and tend to the kids. I come back the next day, he's in an induced coma. my goodness. Yeah. so... What is your emotion like at that point? I was still confused because of course I know on some level that...

okay, maybe this is alcohol related, but it's still, I felt like the rug was pulled out from underneath me and I had my blinders on. So this doctor comes in and she sits down with me and she tells me, you know, this is what's going on. You've got to stop being this 1950s housewife with your head in the sand. Your husband is a severe alcoholic. We're going to do some further lab tests. I wouldn't be surprised if he has cirrhosis. He's 34, by the way, at this time.

Jake Kastleman (15:51.186)
So he's very young. She also proceeds to tell me that she's not sure that he's going to survive this, that his chances are very slim coming out of this. And so, you know, of course, like I'm devastated, I'm confused. And it's really then that I had to start processing and coming to grips with everything that I had seen that those were red flags and that

I needed to come to terms with the severity of this situation. And she told me, know, if he does come out of this, he needs to go to treatment. He needs to go to, I would send him to Betty Ford. There was a Betty Ford in Oregon where we lived at the time. And so he was hospitalized in an induced coma for three months. And I thought he's going to wake up from this and he's gonna be so grateful.

that he survived this and that's not what happened. Steve took a three month nap. Right? Like he just, had no memory of what happened. He didn't know why he was there and he certainly did not connect the dots. He didn't choose to get help. This was just brought upon him because he was in multi-organ failure. And they brought him out of it. So, you know, I thought certainly like this is going to be the rock.

bottom moment. Yeah. For me it was. I learned a lot. I learned so much. You I started doing a lot of research and I spent a lot of time at the hospital talking to the doctors and I just thought this is going to be it. And yeah, unfortunately it was not. So that is when I knew and understood the full scope of what was happening. You think that, you know, when it comes to rock bottom moments, like it

There are ways that could get more extreme, I suppose, but that's pretty much as extreme as it gets. You're, you almost died. You were in a coma for three months. This has gone on long enough, but that is not necessarily the case for people. Right. And less intense things can happen actually and be that rock bottom moment where they finally have a realization and they're like, okay, I got to change this. But for him, he didn't connect with that. So he continues then in his

Jake Kastleman (18:18.075)
alcoholism after that point, is that right? Yes, definitely. He does. He does continue. And we then go on this revolving door journey. We are in and out of treatment facilities and we are in and out of the ICU every six weeks to two months. We're in and out of the ICU, you know, on death's door again.

And this goes on until 2017. So this is three years of in and out of the ICU and in and out of treatment facilities until he passed away. and... Yeah. my goodness. That... So for you, you come out of this, what are... Well, you're obviously devastated at that point with grief, I would imagine. now you're a single mother of three children.

Do you have any help at that point in facing that scenario? I didn't have a lot of help at all throughout this whole journey. And that was part of the problem. Trying, trying to, you know, before he passed away, that was part of the issue. And that's why I talk a lot about red flags and trusting your gut because

you know, as I mentioned before, there was this sort of grooming process when I did see pink flags for me to like push them under the rug and we're just gonna move forward and look ahead. And there was a lot of unintentional, you know, gaslighting and manipulation that happened and I didn't trust my gut. And his family is also, his parents are also.

would say high-functioning alcoholics. So I had not only him, but his parents telling me that I was blowing things out of proportion, you know, and saying things that are inappropriate. And I just, was questioning my own sanity. And so the importance of red flags are not just so that you can recognize them and realize that you're not the problem, that there is a bigger issue going on, but so that you

Jake Kastleman (20:41.862)
as soon as you recognize it, then you can step in and help this person who's struggling to get to the other side, but neither of you can get there if you also don't recognize that this is a problem. And so that was part of the uphill battle, was just not having a lot of support because...

his family was in addiction and I didn't have family that lived near me at the time. So that was definitely tough. And you know, it makes me think of this, term, I'm sure you've heard it, crazy making, right? Where we as addicts and I, you know, for, I don't like to use that label term at all, but those of us who've struggled with addiction. Yeah. You know, I know that I did plenty of that in my day and

I like that you say the unintentional gaslighting because I work in the realm of unconscious emotion. It's just like my day-to-day with clients where it's like, let's explore the unconscious emotions and patterns that are underneath. I gaslighted plenty, but I was gaslighting myself at the same time. It's what you believe. I don't believe that there's this conscious decision to... I don't think that the individual sits down and plots.

Most people don't do that. No, as to how they're going to convince you that you're crazy and that, you know, there's not an issue. That's what they believe, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I want to dive into your book, but I do actually, kind of for my own sake of curiosity, come around to where you're at now. You know, that's 2017. So eight years later, right?

Is your life good now? It is, yes. Yeah, a common question I'm asked is how are you so normal? You're so calm and you're happy and normal. You know, the kids help with that. I wasn't always in that place. I wasn't. I remember because I...

Jake Kastleman (23:02.014)
And you know, I got married young and I had the kids young and I didn't have a lot of close friends. I put poured everything into at home. My husband, the kids. And so I friends, but I wouldn't say I didn't have a lot of people that I could call, you know, in the middle of the day to come over and pick me up off the floor when I'm having a meltdown, right? Totally. So I do remember moments, especially

you know, when he would go back to the hospital yet again. And I was told, he's probably not going to come out of this. I, just to be honest with you, there were times that I thought, okay, if that happens today, or if he doesn't come home, I am just going to, I'm going to commit suicide. I was, I would say it was suicidal. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, of course. Throughout this process, I just thought like,

Not that I didn't want to live, but I just didn't want to feel this way anymore. And I thought that may be the solution to this. So I was in a very, very, very dark place. And all I can say is that's because, you you feel so out of control when you're going through something that you can't control, you feel out of control. You know, and your world is crashing down. And somehow,

when it all, when the worst happens, and it did, somehow I mustered up some strength and I don't know how, but it just happened and I just think that that naturally does occur with anyone. I think in the moments leading up to it, you're like, I'm not gonna survive this. I can't do it, I can't get through this. And somehow, in a way that I can't explain,

You do, you go into survival mode and you start just putting one foot in front of the other and everything miraculously does come together. It's a work in progress. You do have to work on yourself. So there's some self-talk and self-care that you have to do to maintain that and to continually get to a better place. So that's something that I do.

Jake Kastleman (25:25.508)
every morning it's a conscious decision and it was from the beginning, I'm going to choose to eat well today. You know, this is what I'm going to put in my body as far as nutrition so that I can feel good mentally, physically, and just making the small choices so that the other stuff can happen. And that's really all we can control in the beginning, but it's a really good first step. Yeah. No, and I think it's crucial in

The men that I work with and then their spouses that are going through so much, there's a lot to be said for that self care. Like, you know, if your spouse is struggling with addiction, it's almost more important that you take good care of yourself, your health and your nutrition, your mental and emotional health, your spiritual health, all of these things, taking good care of yourself. so, well, good. I think that's amazing. What an incredible...

an incredible journey and a lot of pain. so this obviously going through this, and I know from our previous conversation, you didn't immediately then jump into writing your book, The Hardest Help. It was actually quite a bit later. So what was that process like? What kind of motivated you to, okay, I'm gonna do this. And I know from our previous conversation, it's, anyway, I'd love for you to talk about

what that was like deciding to write this book and what that was motivated by. Sure. I think a lot of people think you process as you're going through something, but you don't. You're not. You're just surviving. You're trying to survive. So every day you're putting out whatever the biggest fire is of the day. Yeah.

That's how we lived for a long time. And when he passed away, it was the same thing. You know, I had to figure out social security for the kids because I wasn't working at the time. I wasn't working. And then I had to revamp my career and focus on that. And so I wasn't able to just grieve and process. I'd say, gosh, at least a year after is when I felt like, OK, things have kind of calmed down.

Jake Kastleman (27:50.8)
and I can actually take some time to myself to just have some quiet time and reflect on what happened. And I needed to go back and think about how did we get here? What could I have done differently? And I think I'd mentioned to you before, maybe not, but several months before Steve passed, I came across some methods that were

pretty effective in moving the needle and in moving Steve forward so that he could see that there was an issue and that it was critical for him to go back and get some treatment. Because all of the methods that I had tried previously, the yelling, the threats, the ultimatums, none of that worked. Rock bottom is a myth, that didn't work, obviously.

But these other methods, I found these to be effective and we were moving forward and we were getting there. then ultimately, you know, and pretty unexpectedly, his liver failed again and this time it was not something that could be patched up and he passed away. Having said that, as I was, you know, fast forward to, you know, several years after he passed and I'm reflecting on

everything that happened, it really hit me, it really dawned on me that, my gosh, so these methods, if I had known then, and I say then, like years earlier, what I know now, I think that the outcome would be different. You he may be here today and it really goes back to not just the methods of, you know, how do we

how do we move this person toward recovery? But it also goes back to my own mindset and recognizing red flags and then what do we do when we recognize red flags? How do we respond? If I knew then that information, that would be a game changer. Instead of...

Jake Kastleman (30:07.94)
instead of yelling and pointing the finger, what would be a more effective method? How could I use positive reinforcement to bring about change? And how can I change my own mindset and how I respond to get a different response? If I had known all of that then, as prior, like I said, I think we would be in a different place. So that's when I realized

Oh my gosh, there are millions of families that need this information also that are suffering like I did. And why would I keep this information? I need to get it out to everyone. Everyone needs to read this. I also wanted to share my personal story because it's so isolating. And when you're going through something that is difficult to talk about with your family members, your friends, you certainly can't go to work and talk to your coworkers about something like this.

It's just lonely. It's so lonely. So I wanted to be someone that you can connect with and see yourself in my story. And really, regardless of where you're at in your journey with that person's addiction, I have solutions for you and I talk about it all. So, you know, from the very beginning,

to the end, I cover everything so that regardless of where you are at in your journey, you can relate to me and my story and look for solutions from beginning, middle, and end that I share. So that was really important. And also, I don't know back in this book, usually when there's an addiction involved, regardless of the type of addiction,

Not always, but sometimes there can be emotional abuse involved with alcohol. That's very common. There can be physical abuse, not always, but it's common. There can be some things that go on in the house, and this is true with me, that the kids should never see. And I talk about all of those scenarios. I really, really went there. We had some things

Jake Kastleman (32:34.12)
some scary situations in the house. And I detailed it all because I felt like it was just unfair for me to not just rip off the bandaid and expose it all. All of the ghetto drama in the house, here it is because if you're going through that, you don't wanna feel like, this is just me. Like, is this just me going through this right now? So I wanted to say, nope, it's not just you and this is what happened with me.

And I hope that you can feel some comfort in my story. I think that's what most of us feel like in those scenarios. We feel isolated. We feel like, you know, I must be the only one experiencing this or what you said earlier, you know, is it my fault? Is there something I have to change? know, obviously, you know, again, that crazy making kind of feeling like maybe I'm the one who's crazy. Maybe I'm the one.

who's got problems. And that's why this is happening. And it feels deeply isolating. And to have someone be raw and real and open about those struggles and be like, here's what I faced, it helps people just really feel connected. They're not alone. That's powerful. Really powerful. I love the work I get to do as a one-on-one porn addiction recovery coach with men across the world.

My clients feel seen and heard and that they are receiving the tailored help they need with clear, structured exercises and tools to get sober long term. I wanted to share a couple of the stories from these men. The first story is from my client John. He said, I spent many years in denial about my problem, blind to how my actions and behavior hurt myself and those around me.

had tried traditional therapists in the past, but none provided the solutions or tools I needed to overcome my addiction on a day-to-day basis. Jake, however, directly relates to what I'm going through, and it gave me comfort to know that I am not alone in my struggles and that I can overcome my addiction. He has given me the tools and support I needed to get through some of the most difficult times of my life. It has truly been life-changing.

Jake Kastleman (34:57.076)
I have been sober seven months now. I have strengthened my relationships with my spouse, children, and friends, and I am more present with those around me, more mindful of my own emotions, and am beginning to take control of my life. The second story is from my client Chris, who said, I found out about Jake through his podcast and was intrigued. The experience working with him has been great to date.

I've worked with many therapists and coaches over the years. Jake stands out partly because he cares so deeply and is so eager to help. He sees my problems and is almost as excited as I am to solve them. I hear him furiously typing notes on his keyboard when we're talking and I hear, am deeply invested in your success in every keystroke. I love his enthusiasm to continually find new ways to help his clients. I'm a big fan of Jake.

If you or your loved one are struggling with the incredible challenge of porn addiction and it is getting in the way of your love, your success, your motivation and your joy, then apply for my one-on-one intensive porn addiction recovery program at nomordesire.com. A structured program with personalized help.

Jake Kastleman (36:20.286)
And so you said that waiting for rock bottom is not the answer. It's a myth, as you say, and I like that. I think it's great. What are some healthier, earlier interventions a spouse can make that truly help? First and foremost, I think you do have to do the work on yourself. You have to, first of all, you have to educate yourself on

the addiction, and then you have to become the person that can help that other person. Like they say, you have to put on your air mask first before you can help that other person. You have to be in that space or else it's not going to work. Right? So that's really important. And do you think a lot of that journey, kind of

your own processing of your emotional health and things like that of being able to become strong in who you are and confident about who you are and being able to regulate your own emotions. Is that the kind of the realm you're speaking in or? Definitely, yeah. Yes, yeah. I actually really, I talk a lot about that in my book and some things that can help because when you...

If you know, okay, we don't want them to hit rock bottom, the yelling and screaming isn't working, confrontations, that's not working, addressing the elephant in the room and saying, well, you know, if you didn't drink so much, doesn't work, right? That's a natural response, it's normal. It's what we think works because, you know, we're not the one with the addiction. So if someone says to us, hey,

look what's happening. We can see it. But in addiction, often self-awareness is a struggle. And especially with, if it's a substance such as drugs or alcohol, that frontal load that's responsible for things like self-awareness, that's diminished. That's damaged. so they just- Same with porn as well, It's extremely similar. Exactly.

Jake Kastleman (38:45.034)
because they have a hard time connecting those dots between what they're doing, whether it's consuming porn or drinking alcohol or using drugs and the natural consequence that occurs, they just don't make that connection. And so that's something that we have to help them with, that we can help them with. So we can't control someone.

but we can control how we respond. And so that's that self work that I'm talking about. You need to work on how you respond. And that takes some prep and practice. So one thing that I suggest is journaling. I think journaling is really important. It sounds corny and some people are like eye rolling right now. Journaling, yes journaling for a number of reasons. One, we know the off the cuff responses haven't worked. But that's what got us in trouble in the first place.

with whether it's name calling or yelling, right? Like we know that doesn't work. And if we want to try something new, then it's going to be something we have to practice and we have to be really intentional about. And so that's why journaling is really important. What's happening? First of all, you probably need to process and think about, okay, what is happening? What's a common scenario that we keep running into or a conversation that I would like to, I would like.

the outcome to change. So you need to think about that. And what is your message? What's your goal? What kind of response are you looking for? What are we trying to achieve here? And then practice it. used to literally, like in the bathroom in the mirror, I would be like, okay, this is the conversation I know that's coming. This is the goal. This is what I want to achieve. And so let me work on my message. And I would sort of like practice my delivery. That's awesome.

I know it sounds really cheesy, but you know, it works. Because you have to make sure that like you're grounded and you're calm and you know it's coming. You know that resistance is probably coming. And so working on that, that's really helpful. And one thing that I'll share that was helpful when I said,

Jake Kastleman (41:05.226)
in those months leading up to him passing that we were, I was able to kind of like move the needle and move forward because before he was so reluctant to going into treatment for the amount of recommended time. You know, they wanted him to stay for six months. You know, so it was four months of intensive inpatient treatment and then it was several months of you're there at the facility,

for X amount of hours a day and then you go home for X amount of hours a day. And so kind of it was a transition period. And so it was gonna be a total of six months. That was very scary to him. That was something that he didn't wanna do. And he was reluctant and it felt like I was just being met with resistance the whole way. Something that's extremely common.

that almost always happens is you bring it up and not only are they resistant to treatment, but they're resistant to talking about it altogether or you the idea that they need any help. What I did, a couple of methods that work, first of all to stop conversations that are so confrontational and just get curious and ask open-ended questions.

So, you know, whether it's about pornography or alcohol or whatever substance, whatever addiction that they have, to ask questions about them and just to get them talking. Because regardless of the addiction, if someone is in addiction, they don't just struggle with that impulse control. They struggle

probably with anxiety, depression, right? There are a lot of things that come along with the addiction that they don't like, that they wish that they didn't have to deal with. They're not happy in this situation. They don't necessarily want to quit the addiction, right? They don't want to give up what they think is making them feel better. Yes, it's their solace. It's their escape, their comfort.

Jake Kastleman (43:27.274)
Exactly. Yeah, they don't, so they don't want to give that up, but they don't want to feel this way. you know, asking about their day, asking about their struggles. And I think initially, and this is where, you know, some people, they get antsy and they're like, well, it didn't work the first time, so it didn't, it doesn't work. It does. You know, the first time you have that conversation, this person that's struggling with the addiction is probably so used to you coming at them all the time.

Yeah. And that first time that you ask curious questions and you're, you know, asking them about, you know, their depression and anxiety, things that you haven't really touched on before, you're probably not going to be met with an open conversation on the other side. It may take several conversations to get them to put their walls down and to talk about their anxiety, their depression, or, you know, it could be,

you know, gosh, every job that I go for, I'm just, I'm not getting to that second interview, you know, because maybe they lost their job because of their addiction, for example. Or they're just not happy in their job. They want a better job. It's just not happening. You know, talking about the why, but not you telling them. You getting them to tell their why, you know, and getting them to see how their actions

and their outcomes, what they want, those things don't line up, those things don't match up. And so over time, they'll start to see that, okay, what I want and what I'm doing, those things don't align, right? Positive reinforcement is also very effective. So I think, you know, we talked about boundaries before, and I wanna...

I want to touch on that really quick because I think, I think, I'm going off on a tangent, but this has to do with that, promise. People, This was actually going to be my next question was about boundaries. I think some people, boundaries, they, they're confused as to what the purpose of boundaries, what is the purpose of boundaries, right? I think, I think some kind of see it as their excuse to induce punishment.

Jake Kastleman (45:56.287)
Like, well, you haven't quit X, Y, Z, so therefore this is what I'm going to do. And it's not, boundaries are not meant to be a punishment. Both of you need boundaries on either side, right? Like, you need boundaries so that what you're doing, because you're involved with this person with the addiction, you're comfortable with what you're doing. For example, you I was no longer comfortable going to the liquor store for my husband.

It was just kind of an unspoken thing, routine that we got into. go to the liquor store for him and at some point I wasn't comfortable with that anymore. So I had to say, I'm not doing this to punish you, but I'm just, this is how it makes me feel and I just don't want to do that anymore. know, boundaries didn't mean for me that, you're still drinking. So I'm just taking the kids and I'm leaving. I think, you know, an appropriate boundary would be

we're not going to have heavy discussions when you're intoxicated. That would be an appropriate boundary because we're not getting anywhere with this. So I think when you set boundaries, you have to think about, what is your end goal? So not just setting boundaries just to set boundaries, just to say and assert power and say and control and say, this is how it's gonna go, but to think about your end goal. So with me saying,

You know, we're not talking about this when you're intoxicated. We will have a conversation when you're sober so you can come back and have a conversation with me during that time. You know, that was for a purpose. You know, we were not getting anywhere talking about these things when he's not going to remember. So it wasn't about control. It was about...

This is what's best for both of us here in this situation. Yeah, that that underlying intention, the goal that you have, you know, that's mutually beneficial. And here's what I'm willing to do or not do, or here's what I'm willing to engage with, not engage with for you, right? It's you're not controlling the other person. It's these are the boundaries for me. Yeah. It's in my feelings and my needs kind of thing.

Jake Kastleman (48:12.479)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. And boundaries also help with communication. Also, you're communicating your why. So I think that's helpful for both of you. Yeah. It's really good. Yeah. It's really good. I wanted to ask about, so betrayal trauma is something I've talked about on the show before and it's a big...

A big topic, betrayal trauma in spouses often creates a constant walking on eggshells kind of feeling, right? Which you were experiencing, I'm sure, in this whole dynamic. So what practical tools help partners break free from that cycle and create stability for themselves? I think we've talked about some of that, but...

I think I also wonder just maybe some of the conclusions that you came to of how to step out of that, I'm walking on eggshells type of scenario, or I need to do everything that he says or just play along and be passive maybe. What are a couple of those shifts that you think that spouses kind of need to go through to approach things differently? First of all, boundaries. Yeah.

Back to boundaries, right? There you go. Boundaries, yeah. Boundaries are important and boundaries can also be, you know, what you will tolerate as far as how you're treated. So, and that's part of the walking on eggshells. So, you know, if you're going to name call or you, you know, if you want to be rude to me, then the conversation stops here. We can pick it back up later at X time.

But, I'm done with this conversation if that's what you're going to do. So setting those boundaries so that that eliminates some of the walking on eggshells, right? Yeah. You know, if you're going to be in that bad of a mood, then, you know, I'm going to remove myself or you can remove yourself and we'll, we will see each other later. I won't be over here or you can be over there. So that as well. I think.

Jake Kastleman (50:38.547)
Also, meeting the person where they're at and really having a good understanding. Recovery isn't linear, right? Sometimes it's two steps forward and one step back. Sometimes it's three steps forward and three steps back, and you feel like you're at zero again. You're always inching forward, but I think having a good understanding and

Again, talking with your team and having a good sounding board and understanding this addiction will help you because I think a lot of people struggle with the expectations. They have their own expectations as to where we should be now. You know, it's been three months since we've talked about you have an issue and so therefore, gosh, it's been three months. Shouldn't we be over this by now?

And that can definitely create a lot of tension and let down. And then it's heaping even more pressure on the one who's struggling with addiction, which is really, it's a part of the addiction as a whole. For those of us who struggle with addiction, we have this often unconscious kind of emotional pressure of, need to be this person and put on this mask and put on that front and look a certain way and meet all these different standards and achieve all these things.

whether or not we're doing all that, we feel this perfectionistic kind of tension for so many of the men that I've worked. It's like without fail every time it's there, without them realizing. And when I then approach with pressure, right, now it's just matching that inner critic they already have internally. It's not assisting in the process. So I think that's...

That's really good. You speak a lot about scripts. In fact, you have some free ones, some free resources on your site, think, Scripts for spouses to use. Specific words people can use in hard conversations. Could you share maybe a bit of an example of a script that helps a spouse confront denial, right? You often face denial and

Jake Kastleman (53:01.995)
face denial of our spousing. I don't have an issue or this defensiveness to confront that denial without escalating into the shame or the defensiveness and feeding that. Yeah. what I do in the book is I go through role play scenarios. I take you through role play scenarios. While I don't have those memorized, I definitely do because resistance, you'll meet resistance all along the way. And it's not just once.

And so going into it, knowing that is important, right? And that's part of what you just talked about, is how do we stop walking on eggshells? Well, if you know that that's coming, then you can prepare with how you're going to respond, right? If you know that that's happening and you understand that that's just part of the disease process, then we're not going to be as shocked.

upset, we're not going to be as reactive. We're going to know that this is coming and we're going to be prepared with this is how we're going to respond. And so that's why I was talking earlier about, and this would apply in the situation, you know, when he says, I don't have a problem, that's when you ask, you know, those open-ended questions, those leading questions, and you're leading them to, I have a problem.

They're talking about everything but the problem. The loss of the job, the loss of relationship, the strain in relationships that maybe, you know, being on the last straw with their boss at work, whatever it is, there are natural consequences that occur when someone is in addiction. And so while it's not helpful to point the finger, right, what we want to do is to get them to over time see

their own reflection and to see that this is an issue and you can lead them to it and over time they will see that. Also, know, positive reinforcement. So with addiction, you know, we talked about how, you know,

Jake Kastleman (55:19.009)
they're getting their comfort. And they believe that when they consume porn or drink alcohol or do drugs, whatever it is that they have an addiction to, whenever they consume that, they think that that's the answer. And their brain believes that that is what's needed in that moment when they feel that anxiety or that need to go back to whatever it is, the porn, the alcohol, drugs.

Over time, you can rewire the brain. And so at home, you can help with that. So positive reinforcement when this other reward becomes greater and more important to them over time, and they get the same feel-good feeling from that, they do the alcohol, then they're probably gonna choose this. rewarding it have the long term. It's like-

both short-term and long-term benefits, right? Rather than long-term consequences that they don't like with their health, et cetera. Exactly, exactly. So the research proves that yes, over time the brain can rewire. But it takes repetition and it takes time. So what you can do at home is recognize every small step forward. Now small step forward does not mean

necessarily everyone's different. It's very rare that it means, he didn't log on at all this week and consume any porn or, you know, I don't see alcohol in the house anymore. That's not the case most of the time. A small step forward could be, he's now opening up in conversations. He before was resistant. He wouldn't talk about anything, but now he's opening up to me.

He's talking to me about the core issues. And I feel like we're really getting somewhere as far as uncovering the why. That's a step forward. Agreeing to go see a doctor, because a good window of opportunity method that I like to use, I call it the window of opportunity method. Once you start uncovering their why and they're starting to see that, okay, when

Jake Kastleman (57:44.695)
I do this, this is the reward I get and I like that and okay, I am starting to see that maybe my behavior is affecting my job or they're going to be more up to going further in the conversation and it still may mean that they're not saying yes to treatment. That could throw them in a complete tizzy. But what you can do is use it as a window of opportunity. So for example,

You know, Steve talked a lot about anxiety. And he was afraid of the medications and he definitely didn't want to go back to treatment. So I used that as a window of opportunity to say, well, know, there was a family doctor that he had gone to since he was little, I said. Dr. Barrett. You know, I went to see Dr. Barrett after I had, you know, our middle child and

I struggled with depression, postpartum depression. He was so helpful to me and you know how I feel about medication. I didn't want to go on medication either, but this is what he did for me. And I think that if you go see Dr. Barrett, he could have some helpful solutions for you. So that was the window of opportunity for him to say yes to go see someone. And of course, behind the scenes, I'm calling Dr. Barrett and I'm saying, giving him the rundown.

And I'm calling our insurance to find out who's in network. And I'm doing all that work behind the scenes because I know that when he gets to see Dr. Barrett, that Dr. Barrett is going to maybe not that same appointment, but in a future appointment, he's going to get him to an intake meeting. And that he is going to be the person, this middle person to help get him back into treatment. And so...

You know, we don't always come to the conclusion that we need to go to treatment at home, you know, or that we need to agree to therapy or, whatever the recommended treatment is, depending on the addiction, that that all happens at home. But these are some things that we can do at home to get them there. And that window of opportunity method is really effective. That's great.

Jake Kastleman (01:00:04.483)
If you could give one piece of advice to a wife who's listening right now or a partner who's listening right now who feels broken by the trail trauma and unsure of what to do next, what would that message be for them? The first piece of advice I would give would be to trust your own gut instincts because I feel like that is why we went so deep in the first place.

into addiction and things got so far. Because I didn't trust myself, I looked at him the whole time and I constantly pointed the finger at myself. like we talked about, know, this unintentional gaslighting and manipulation, it happens in every addiction, really almost in every confrontational scenario, even outside of addiction. That's just

That's just a common defense response. And so in those moments, because I actually thought like, wait, am I crazy? I think I might be the problem. To recognize that you can trust your gut instincts, you can trust yourself. And once you do that, then you can move forward with the next steps in.

helping yourself heal and helping your loved one if you choose that you want to be the person to do that. But that's really important. Trusting yourself and trusting your own instincts. That's huge. I would say your loved one is not your sounding board. That's another important thing. I think a lot of people are looking at their spouse or the person that they're partnered that they're close with at home and

they are using them as their sounding board. That's not a good idea. That's just going to create conflict, stress in the house. You're not going to get the validation that you're looking for from that person that's struggling. So yeah, it's not going to happen. So you're just going to drive yourself crazy. You're going to...

Jake Kastleman (01:02:22.147)
create more anxiety and more mental health stress for yourself. So get someone that you can talk to if you don't feel like you can talk to family and friends, then you need to get a therapist that is not just a general therapist, I would say one that does specialize in whatever type of addiction that this person is dealing with. And another thing, there are

therapists that specialize in the craft method. And the craft method that I talk about in my book and the other methods that I talk about in my book and that I share, they're not just alcohol specific. think some people look at my book and say, it's just to help alcoholics. No, these methods are for any addiction type. And the reason that I recommend these craft trained therapists is

or anyone that kind of has a similar method is the whole detach method, that's old school. I would run if someone told me that I need to detach because not everyone can. First of all, let's just say that not everyone that lives with an addict can leave. Even if they wanted to, not everyone can leave. And so detach, what do you mean? He's on my couch right now.

Like, that's not gonna work. When I go home, he's there. And so that's just not helpful. And then also, there are many that they don't want to. They're like, wait a minute, I think there's a better way. I don't know what it is, but there's gotta be a better way and a way that I can help this person. And so I don't want to detach. And so I would run for the hills if I went to a therapist and then that was the message. And...

not because this person is being malicious and trying to tear up families, because this person isn't well-trained and they don't have methods and strategies to share with you that are going to work and be effective. They don't have the answers. So go to someone that does. That's really good. And I've talked about this on the show previously, but I know for me, as someone who's struggled with addiction, I was addicted to pornography and I also had substance use addictions.

Jake Kastleman (01:04:44.809)
And it's been years for me since all that. But when I got married and that was about a decade ago, I didn't realize that I still had much of the addictive mindset where I was addicted to those hyper, all about productivity and I was a workaholic and it was a con.

constantly, constantly, I was addicted to nutrition and exercise. So I was exercising for, you know, an hour and a half to two hours a day. And I was, I was so meticulous with everything that I ate and it had to be exactly this way. And I was, I was, my mind was so caught up in, in all of this, just so fixated and obsessive. And I know for my wife, she just really felt like I wasn't, I wasn't present emotionally. wasn't there.

when she, a number of years ago, started to say, look, and get real about how I was showing up in the relationship and being very straightforward about that, establishing those boundaries, right? Rather than just the walking on eggshells or just saying, okay, maybe I'm, because you were talking about instinct, trusting your instinct. When she started to say something is not right here and this is what I'm experiencing and here's what I'm not okay with. Yeah.

That really brought a lot out into the light where I was like, gosh, I guess I'm really not here in the ways that she needs. And because I had just continued kind of my patterns and things that I'd gotten used to throughout my life. I didn't know what I was doing. And until she was very straightforward, know, no nonsense, not, I'm not saying that the judgment right is needed right. And then there's that.

often is messy, it can be messy, but just the trusting your instincts and being real about, I actually am experiencing this. This is not all in my head. Right. It's so important. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the last thing that I'll say, and then we'll point people where they can go if they can get in contact with you or find out about your book, et cetera. But if you could give one piece of advice

Jake Kastleman (01:06:59.885)
directly to a man perhaps or a woman who's listening that is struggling with pornography addiction or another addiction, what would you say to them? We've never been asked that question. I thought you might not have been. How can they best help their spouse? Because a lot of the men who listen, they know that they have an issue, but they also have a lot of blind spots. Yeah.

What do their spouses most need from them? Let's say one is two. I mean, a couple of things could be helpful. I know one thing that's not helpful from a spouse to, you know, towards the addict is when you come to them with, there's five things, you know, or you don't say there's five things, but you start spouting off all the things you want them to fix. And they just don't hear you anymore. And so,

you know, one thing I learned is I'm going to come to you with one thing I want you, I just need to see this one thing from you. And so on the flip side, go to your partner and say, you know, I don't have all the answers as to how I can fix this and make this better for you right now. It's something I struggle with, but what's just, not 10 things, what's one thing that I can do for you today? Just one.

Just one thing, give me one thing to work on. And one thing to work on doesn't mean cure it today, right? It's just like, what's one small step I can take for you today? And if you could every day just tell me one thing to work on today. And I can focus on that, right? Because it's just like anything else, like...

If you want, if you have a hundred pounds you want to lose. And someone says, well, you just need, know, you just need to, you know, they start, well, you need to, you need to start running five miles a day and you need to, it's like, what's, what's, no, what's one thing I can do today so I can just get closer and tomorrow tell me one step and let's just like, let's just take this into bite size bits so that it's manageable. Yeah. And I think that, that

Jake Kastleman (01:09:25.597)
openness is so important and being able to step forward and say, have the humility to say, I know I need to change and I know I need to improve. But also as you're saying, not overloading myself with a billion things at once, it's not going to happen. It's not effective and it leaves both of you feeling overwhelmed and back to square zero. Okay, I don't know what to do, I guess. I guess it just won't do anything today.

I guess, you know, oh, I guess I'm so overwhelmed. I'll just go have a drink then. Right? So I think that's really where it leads. Instead of, like I said, I need, I really need to dumb this down. Like, please just give me one small step I can take today. And then when I master that, give me another one and let's build. Yeah, the small and simple things. most important. Yeah.

Well, awesome, Holly. I love it. I think that so much of this will be so helpful to so many people. if people want to get in contact with you, they want to find your book, et cetera, where should they go? Go to thehardesthelp.com. So on thehardesthelp.com, my website, you'll find my social media, you'll find the link to the book, you'll find resources, my email, everything is on thehardesthelp.com.

And there's a lot of awesome resources on there, by the way. I was on your site checking it out and I was amazed at just how quality and practical those resources are there. So. Thank you. Yeah. Good place for people to start. So thank you so much for coming on Holly. Pleasure to have you. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. If you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn.

Jake Kastleman (01:11:39.663)
or my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome porn addiction. And you can find them at nomordesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing,

Keep building that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.

Jake Kastleman (01:12:26.286)
Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others,

Please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.